ABOUT THE SPANISH NAVY FACTION

I am wondering when the Spanish fleet box will come out (with the missing Spanish Flag sheet) and maybe the Santísima Trinidad for the big ship box set.

Hmm, I don’t think that the designers deserve that critic.

To give “gimmicks” is not easy. They should be based on historical facts, not the wish to give every fleet some nice stuff.

Bravery is OK but to die without doing much effect to the enemy shows some serious defects of a fleet. At Trafalgar the Spaniards had the biggest ships. A lot of firepower. They had high losses but if losses are an indicator for bravery they are behind the French. The Allies did no exact loss lists like the RN but what we know tells a sad story.

Only HMS Victory had more than 50 KIA. Many Allied ships had more than 100.

If I want to be nasty I could state that the Santisima had an unknown high number of casualties but surrendered to 98 guns HMS Prince that had no KIA or wounded at all. The only SOL so lucky. (It had destroyed the Achille, so was not lazy). But that would be unkind to the brave sailors of a proud nation.
But bravest was Redoutable with 522 hors de combat from a crew of 643.

So no bravery bonus for the Spaniards.

Only French had been fleeing?
1 ship destroyed, 10 captured, Spanish 11 captured. Dumanoir Le Pelley tried to bring the van in but it was the age of wind power. It was not just French “reluctance”, Spanish Captain Valdés had his Neptuno towed by boats into action. Only SOL from van and soon struck to Minotaur. Le Pelley took four French and two Spanish SOL to safety. Unlike Villeneuve he was not killed in one of the strange “suicides” connected to Napoleon. So he was not considered a coward.

Nelson did a good job but to attribute everything to a “genius” would mean to jump short. From Admiral down to Captain the Allies did no good job. No RN ship was lost in battle or the following storm.

Cosmao retook two Spanish ships of the line, but it cost him one French and two Spanish vessels to do so. A bad deal.
So no deserved bonus for a Spanish Admiral.

To play without using the optional malus rules is more than enough, to give some extra sugar would be strange.

Not to forget: The Spanish fleet has a special flavour with the biggest ships. A good reason to play Spaniard.

I would feel well, being no British. (Crazy mix of German and neighbours)

With the many cruelties done by English writers to German language I understand your feelings very well.
Some in BA should be rated as war crimes.
😉

I wrote Napoleonic by intent, before 1805 Spanish often won. Forced to be allies of the Oger they lost the “bite” for some time.

Nobody should doubt that the brave Spaniards gave him a a hard beating. Englishmen think it was just Wellington. Not me!

Quite agree: the Spanish fought well on plenty of occasions; and it is a bit odd that Gravina is not represented out of the box, but I would hope that Warlord will provide lots of additional content if the game does well, and it would be easy enough to add a Special Character for him here online: perhaps when the Santísima Trinidad is launched 🙂

Agree about the spelling as well, but I think the typical mis-spelling in English is to ensure that we pronounce is correctly! My wife is a proud Ecuadorean descendant of El Gran Capitán and still has his family name (plus her mum’s, and has a composite 4-word first name), and hearing people here in the UK try to say all of it is genuinely hilarious.

I am not sure about the criticisms of the malus: the rule referring to Heavily Armed seems ok to me: take more guns for free on your 1st rates (a plus), but make a Skill Test to go to Full Sails (a minus): having said that, I am not sure how much the additional weight for a few guns would affect a 1st Rate, so you could quite easily ignore the malus. Out of Practice makes acquiring Veteran Crews slightly more expensive, which does not seem particularly ‘wrong’ given the unfortunate state of the Spanish Navy at the time; maybe it should only apply to a limited date range … 1796-1808 perhaps? Of course, everyone is perfectly free to ignore these rules.

In any case, the Spanish box will be the first Fleet Box that I buy.

Cheers

–Bob

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Bob D.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Bob D.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Bob D.

Perhaps because Gravina was a puppet of the French Admiral? Far too loyal without profile?

Against his better knowledge he followed the Frenchman. A simple note that the Spanish ships would be unfit to leave Cadiz…….

We should not ignore that Gravina was a noble court officer. His prestige at court led to him being appointed Ambassador in Paris in 1804 and his appointment as Admiral of the Spanish Fleet in 1805. His appointment, above (perhaps better) veteran officers such as Mazarredo or Grandallana, was due to the personal support of the King.

Not following the orders would have ended his career. Well, the wounds from Trafalgar did that too. A brave man, but no good navy CO. Not able to say NO.

Gravina had an excellent team of Spanish officers in 1805, many of whom had served under his orders in other campaigns such as Toulon, Cadiz, Brest and Santo Domingo. They knew that following that French fool would be wrong.

During the battle of Trafalgar, the squadron commanded by Gravina and Escaño was more fortunate in its manoeuvres than the rest of the Combined Fleet, That allowed him to gather some units and withdraw to the bay of Cadiz.

Gravina’s report post Trafalgar may be interesting, it included the following:
“I do not possess the data requisite for giving your Highness a detailed and particular account of these single fights, nor can I speak with certainty of the movements of the Van, which, I am informed, tacked at the commencement of the battle in order to support those who were assailed. I can, however, confidently assure you that every ship, French as well as Spanish, which fought in my sight, performed its duty to the utmost, and that this Ship, after a terrific contest of four hours with three or four of the Enemy’s Vessels, its rigging destroyed, its sails shot through and through, its masts and topmasts riddled, and every respect in a most deplorable condition, was most seasonably relieved by the San Justo, a Spanish, and the Neptune, a French ship, which junction drove off the Enemy, and enabled the Rayo, the Montanes, the Asis, and the San Leandro, all of which had suffered severely, to unite with the other French ships, that were as just as bad a plight. As soon as this vessel found itself free of the Enemy, it directed the ships which had joined company to assist such vessels as were in need of their aid, and at nightfall, the cannonade having ceased on both sides, the Thémis frigate was ordered to tow us towards Cadiz bay”.

Spanish officers had little tactical insight. Even post Trafalgar, Escaño, the best Spanish tactician of his time, stuck to the line of battle as the only good way to fight. Claiming bad sailing conditions of the Combined Fleet as reason for defeat. He even stated that Nelson’s tactic would fail against a fleet of equal strength. Bad maths in calculating the Trafalgar fleets?

Gravina was a master in defense of blockaded ports, using well-armed and trained boats and launches. That would be a possible rule base.

He was known to be a good sailor and organiser. So ive his ships a sailing Advantage?

But in battle on open sea? The praise of Gravina in Napoleons Decrès, 11.08.1805 should be read cum grano salis. Napoleon’s ability to judge naval affairs was low at best. In that Action two Spanish SOL are lost. Against a RN fleet that was in bad shape, eve before the Action.

Captain Gual (and others): what stats would you give Gravina if he were in the game? Like many others, I’m a bit perplexed as to why he’s not included.

Spanish history during the 18th century is tabout a great time that comes to end. Spanish empire reached its peak during the 16th century and lives its decline during the next centuries. It was a ship that had been sinking for a lot of time, which had been kept afloat due to the stubbornness, pride and courage of many of the Spaniards of that period.

Spain found itself at the end of the 18th century with a much diminished army and lack of material and economics resources. Moreover Spain was forced to fight alongside the French against the British, in an always difficult cooperation in the seas.

The Spanish armada was led by men aware of the above and also being conscious that their time was ending. In this sense the letter that Churruca sends to his brother shortly before the battle of Trafalgar is very enlightening:

“On the San Juan in Cádiz on 11 October. Dear brother: since we left Ferrol nobody has received their pay, despite these being declared in advance and classified as soldiers’ prest. To this end they are owed four months, and they hold no hope of seeing one real in a long time; they owe us four months of salary as well, but we won’t receive a morsel, despite the hard work we are doing: (…) This is the work with which we serve the King, that in no grade can we rely on our wages (…) If you come to hear that my ship has been taken, know that I am dead. ”

At Trafalgar Churruca nailed the flag to the mast. He ordered that it should not be taken down while he were still lived. His ship, San Juan Nepomuceno, fighted bravely against six enemy ships and it did not surrender until Churruca died reached by a cannonball which tore his leg.

Churruca was a capable commander, who endured to train his crew and organize the vessels he commanded. He was also a scientist, recognized after his death, inside Spain and also abroad. Moreover Churruca received many tributes and recognitions after his death, among others, he was posthumously promoted to admiral and his nephew received the title Count of Churruca.

These kinds of stories were very common at the fall of the Spanish empire. Characters dressed in fatalism, pride and honor sinking together with the rest of the empire.

Here you can find a lot of information about Spanish characters. It is a very interesting book from 1906 written by Edward Fraser.

https://books.google.es/books?id=VeFvCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT178&lpg=PT178&dq=churruca+san+juan+battle+of+trafalgar&source=bl&ots=DOlTfLXTpx&sig=ACfU3U2Qi96LKlN9nbbO_tPgnuduyFLlJg&hl=es&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOtIjF4r7lAhW-A2MBHRmiA7g4ChDoATABegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=churruca%20san%20juan%20battle%20of%20trafalgar&f=false

• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Ticio.