Clearing Barbed Wire using Bangalore Torpedoes

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  • August 6, 2020 at 3:09 pm #180460
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Has anyone used bangalore torpedoes to clear barbed wire before? The process requires the engineer unit to “advance at least 2 inches away from the target (in this case the barbed wire) and test” to see if the wire is removed … I assume this refers to rolling a 6 to clear it, with +2 modifier for using bangalore torpedoes.

    August 6, 2020 at 3:44 pm #180461
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    it is not very clear, as always the regulation is poorly written.

    “D-day overlord” book

    1) “manual cleaning minefield” paragraph : +2 for using mine clearing gear, and it include bangalore.

    2) But the next “Bangalore torpedoes” special rules say: “…refer to “blow it up” rules for minefield, use the same rule for barbed wire…” then “…roll 2D6. To destroy the obstacle the player must roll 6 or more hits…”

    In short, as badly written as always but seems that you have to throw 2d6 and roll 6+. Easy army confirms.

    August 6, 2020 at 4:06 pm #180462
    Master Chief
    Participant

    I was thinking the “bangalore torpedo” special rule” was refering to this (I made changes in italics):

    Overlord book, page 195

    MANUAL MINE BARBED WIRE CLEARANCE BY INFANTRY
    Any infantry unit that has at least five models inside near a minefield barbed wire can be ordered to attempt to clear it using their bayonets cutters. The unit must be given a special ‘Mine Barbed Wire clearing’ order, which is the same as giving the unit a Down (an Advance if using bangalore torpedoes) order – place a Down (or an Advance) marker Order die next to the unit and then make a ‘mine barbed wire clearing roll’ applying all of the modifiers (+2 if using bangalore torpedoes) below. In order to clear the minefield barbed wire section, the result needs to be a 6 after modifications. Note that a natural 6 is always a success and a natural 1 is always a failure. In addition, if a natural 1 is rolled, the minefield section ambushes the unit as normal (and in this case, an anti-tank minefield does affect the tampering infantry!).

    August 6, 2020 at 4:23 pm #180463
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    I do not know what to say. If they learned to write the rules better 😅
    Bangalore rules says refer to “blow it up” rule and not “manual mine clearing”.
    Easy army says roll 6+ with 2d6.

     

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
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    August 6, 2020 at 4:34 pm #180468
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Thanks, but Easy Army only tries to put in the rules, it is not the rulebook. Where did Easy Army get the 2D6 from? The “Blowing it Up” section should be used only for weapons, because it mentions to use the HE value of the “weapon”, and I do not think bangalore torpedoes have a HE value. This leads me to think it should point to “Manual clearing” instead. Manual clearing also referenced +2 modifier for infantry using bangalore torpedoes to clear minefields, otherwise infantry using bangalore torpedoes would also use “Blowing it up” to clear minefields.

    August 6, 2020 at 6:11 pm #180470
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    I agree with you.

    But it is not well explained in the manual

    August 7, 2020 at 12:03 am #180473
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    I’d think you’d use the mine clearing rules, while I don’t think we’re using the same book Battleground Europe goes in detail about mine clearing.  To abbreviate what the book says; only indirect fire weapons can target a minefield, if a hit is scored roll the HE value for targeting a building needing 6 hits to clear the minefield.

    Infantry on the other hand must clear it by hand, with a roll needing a 6, and have the following modifiers:

    Veterans +1, Inexperienced-1, Engineers +1, mine-clearing gear(bangers) +2, -1 per pin

    If that’s the rules for mines then it would make sense for barbed wire to follow the same rules, only difference would be the barbed wire goes away yet the minefield goes into the “cleared” status and can still potentially hit units.

    August 7, 2020 at 1:01 am #180475
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Thanks, I agree. The minefield rules across the books (Battleground, Duel and Western Desert) are consistent. The “confusion” arises on how these rules are to be applied to clearing barbed wire, specifically using bangalore torpedoes.

    The “special rules” for bangalore torpedoes that appear in the stats for many engineer units in the Overlord book are below. The reference to “Blowing it Up” for minefields causes the confusion. I think the reference should be to “Manual clearing of minefields”. It also contradicts the “Manual clearing of minefields” rules, which state the unit should be given a down order (+2 if bangalore torpedoes were used as well) instead of an advance order.

    Bangalore Torpedoes: Bangalore Torpedoes were long plastic tubes filled with explosive. Bangalore
    Torpedoes were designed to clear mines, barbed wire, and other obstacles from a distance. To use Bangalore Torpedoes the Breaching party must start their turn within 2″ of the target then Advance outside of 2″ of the target. At that point the explosives detonate and the player tests to see if the target is destroyed. To detonate a Bangalore Torpedo all friendly units must be outside of 2″ of the target (refer to ‘blow it up’ rules for minefields, use the same rules for Barbed wire see 178).

    August 7, 2020 at 7:16 am #180478
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    Easy army is correct, and “refer to blowing up” is correct. Found the source of the rule!

    “D-day: Overlord” + FAQ pag. 24.

    “All Bangalore torpedoes entries. Replace the last bracketed line with the following:
    Roll 2D6. To destroy the obstacle the player must roll 6 or more hits.”

    Then bangalore is works similarly to explosive

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
    August 7, 2020 at 7:36 am #180483
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Thanks, finally we have it resolved 👍 But this makes manual clearing with +2 using bangalore torpedoes redundant.

    Unless the bangalore torpedoes “special rule” only apply to Overlord engineer teams with bangalore torpedoes and not others, which is also weird.

    — sigh — You are right the rules are messy.

    August 7, 2020 at 7:51 am #180484
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    I think they have confused ideas 😅, who writes the rules is not the same who thinks them, the left hand does not know what the right hand does, or there is no control and testing of rulebooks…

    I think +2 only applies to mine clearing gear (mine detectors, etc.), which is not bangalore because it has its own specific rule (similar to explosives, and rightly I would say)

    August 7, 2020 at 8:22 am #180485
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Now bangalore torpodoes have a 72% chance (6 or more hits on 2D6) of clearing obstacles, compared to 50% (rolling 4+ with a +2 to get a six). That’s a flat 72% compared to the variable old manual clearing rule for minefields, which can go up to 84% (rolling 2+ for +1 veteran +1 engineers and +2 bangalore torpedoes).

    August 7, 2020 at 12:03 pm #180486
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    To me the difference between percentages are reasonable, considering that one is an explosive tube that any equipped / low trained soldier just have to put under the obstacle or on the minefield, the other requires some skills for the use of equipment such as pliers / scissors and mine detector for minefield, and engineers have specific training for this.

    Another difference is that manual mine clearing is affected by the pins, detonate the bangalore or explosive is not affected by the pins (2d6 or 3d6 hits is not affected by pins),  except for the order test.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
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    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.
    August 8, 2020 at 4:37 am #180495
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    To add to the confusion, have you looked at p179, Fortifications, Barbed Wire, Special Rules “Combat engineers (Pioneers) can clear an adjacent strip by receiving a Down order, but not as a reaction to enemy fire.”

    No test involved.  Why would you use the test for Bangalores when you have a way of doing it automatically that also allows you the benefit of being down rather than having an advance order?  Is there any unit with Bangalores that doesn’t qualify for the description “Combat engineers”?

    August 8, 2020 at 6:06 am #180496
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Yes good point, but not all engineer units (e.g. the 591st British Parachute Engineers in the Overlord book) have bangalore torpedoes (although they do have explosives, which is a bit of an overkill for barbed wire, but still works). Also some units like the US Beach Assault unit can choose not to pay 10 points to be equipped with bangalore torpedoes, in which case the unit “wastes” 1 turn to be Down to clear the barbed wire. If it had paid 10 points to get the bangalore torpedoes, it could Advance from within to more than 2 inches (4 inches for units using explosives) from the barbed wire and roll 2D6 (3D6 if using explosives) to destroy it with 6 or more hits. I also assume since the unit was given an Advance order it could still Fire normally, which can be useful.

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