Do intervening infantry give soft cover to armor?

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  • October 4, 2021 at 1:10 pm #186436
    Robert Scholtz
    Participant

    Situation:  I want to shoot my medium anti-tank gun at a tank that is out in the open. Next to the tank is an enemy infantry section that is between my anti-tank gun and the tank, so my shot would pass through the infantry before hitting the tank.

    Question:  Does the infantry section give the tank a -1 “Soft Cover” To Hit modifier?

     

    October 4, 2021 at 1:16 pm #186439
    Nat
    Participant

    yes….

    which is why the wording of tank riders & its lack of timings/clarity is a problem….. because they dismount when the shot is decleared (step 1) and found to be in range (step 3), so even though they are down if they go infront of the tank the shot now passes over them…so do you work out the cover when declearing the shot or when rolling the dice (step4) so after the dismount?

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Nat.
    October 5, 2021 at 1:21 am #186449
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    @ Nat – in every other case, modifiers are assessed at the point they occur in resolution (ie: in this case at the step ‘roll to hit’).  Why would this be any different?

    I would say at that point it doesn’t matter if the squad in front is the tank riders that were forced to dismount or another squad that just happens to be there.

    October 5, 2021 at 9:36 am #186451
    Nat
    Participant

    So the AT gun has a clear line of sight at a tank and declears a shot, suddenly theres a unit in front of it….. but that doesnt matter?

    (as it happens I do tend to play it that the mods are worked out when you roll to hit, & I make sure my opponent is aware that I can jump the riders off to infront of the tank and so hinder the clear shot)

    October 6, 2021 at 1:42 am #186458
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    I’d actually argue that they might not provide cover to the tank.  While the base rule is shooting through an enemy unit gives soft cover, vehicles have cover rules that might change that.

    On pg 106 ROLLING TO HIT there is two considerations for vehicles to receive a cover bonus.  First is “when you work out whether a vehicle is in cover or not, consider the entire vehicle not just the facing being fired at” and “only if 50% or more of the entire vehicle you are firing at is behind cover, then the relevant cover modifier applies”

    If this is what should be applied then whether infantry gives cover to vehicles would be on a case by case basis; small teams would give cover to a jeep but not a tank, or squads would give cover to a StuG but not a MAUS, etc

    I think this is one for the devs

    October 6, 2021 at 4:35 am #186459
    Kar98k
    Participant

    The rules are pretty clear that the tank riders must dismount before the shot is taken, and then the riders go Down.

    Whether or not they provide soft cover for the vehicle, well, that is a different matter as pointed out above. The rules suggest “yes”, but only because soft cover doesn’t necessarily mean physical cover, it can also represent an obstructing factor.

    As a side note, the fact that tank riders are allowed to dismount before an AT-gun in ambush (Ambush order die) resolves its To-Hit roll seems a little ridiculous. Does the AT-gun crew first shout-out, “Stop! Can you please get off! We are going to shoot the tank!” Anyway, I’m sure there is some sort of reasoning for the rule, but currently I don’t know what that is.

    October 6, 2021 at 8:57 am #186460
    invisible officer
    Participant

    One of many rules from original infantry game that now…….   Sure, if you fire at an infantry unit another between you and target  might inflict a problem.

     

    But AT rounds against a tank?     Hardly a problem to see and aim on it. And a human body against an AT round……

    Even a lorry will not stop it. (OK , the motor block)  In WW I a German AMC, converted from a passenger liner, was shot at with AP grenades.  Making nice calibre size holes but not exploding. The fuze being constructed to react post hard contact. So AT rounds in WW II did not explode on a bush but only at the tank behind.

    October 6, 2021 at 1:39 pm #186461
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    Is the intervening infantry considered cover, or is the blanket statement that shooting through infantry provides a -1 cover bonus?

    Interpretation of this will drastically change how this rule is applied in any situation, since if it’s the former the “cover” unit will have to obscure at least 50% of the target unit to give the modifier.  If it’s the latter then does it only apply if the los between closest models of “shooting/targets” units crosses a “cover” unit?

    October 6, 2021 at 4:11 pm #186462
    Nat
    Participant

    [quote]Infantry models are always allowed to see and shoot through enemy infantry and artillery models as if they were not there. Note however that if you shoot through an enemy unit, this will provide cover to their comrades behind, as explained later in the section about cover[/quote]

    Basically its worked out from the firing model… if the LoF passes through  the buble of the unit you apply a -1 to hit… so in theory if you have two panzerfausts shooting a tank one could be firing through the enemy squad and the other not.

    October 6, 2021 at 5:10 pm #186463
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    I dont know man it still doesn’t really seem that cut and dry; it’s different to how all other cover is applied in game, it also states “as explained in the section about cover” which includes the 50% rule, and I genuinely don’t believe I should be able to obstruct a shot at a MAUS from a 17 pdr because I stuck an spotter in the middle of the direct LOS.  I’m using an extreme example but I think it shows where the blanket rule has flaws

    October 6, 2021 at 7:19 pm #186464
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    I contacted Warlord; they said they’ll forward the question to Alessio and that the answer may end up in the next FAQ

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 1 month ago by Jacob Carter.
    October 18, 2021 at 5:06 pm #186557
    Jacob Carter
    Participant

    Heard back from Warlord

    The intervening infantry, artillery, soft-skin have similar rules as cover so must obscure 50% of the target unit to give soft-cover.

    The height of a vehicle is taken into account when determining the 50%, so taller vehicles potentially won’t receive cover from infantry

     

    November 27, 2021 at 3:30 am #186747
    HellRaiser 7
    Participant

    That’s how I always played it , using the 50% rule when Infantry are blocking line of site. A Stug (which was about the Height of a man) could get the +1 soft cover bonus but not a Panzer IV G or a Sherman tank.

    October 19, 2023 at 8:51 am #189544
    L.T. Russell
    Participant

    I was just playing tonight and I had a Jagdpanzer IV shooting at a halftrack and a Down enemy squad in between gave the halftrack soft cover.  It’s an accepted house rule of the more experienced players in our group.  I think it’s ridiculous….

    October 23, 2023 at 9:26 am #189551
    Nat
    Participant

    I like the house rule of … if down then they’re not in the way as they are on the ground trying not to be hit
    If they are in the way (model height + 1″ as per normal) and the roll to hit fails by 1 (ie soft cover mod) then that counts as a hit against the unit in the way :p

     

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