BA Tournament Rules Question: Mounted HQ Having Rifle Carbines????

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  • April 17, 2023 at 3:59 pm #188997
    Neely
    Participant

    I was in a recent BA tournament and had a Mounted unit of German SS Cavalry and then as such – made my HQ mounted (per the FAQ). My opponent stated that my mounted German HQ could NOT have rifle carbines, as the officer slot in the Armies of Germany only state that I can have the models having: “pistols, rifles, assaults rifles, or SMGs”, specially – that I could equip the models with rifles but not carbines and therefore cannot use them while mounted. I argued that a carbine is a rifle and therefore can be used by mounted HQ. My opponent disagreed.

    This seems unnecessarily pedantic or detailed. Ideally, can I get an official ruling on this? or at least unofficially – what are folks’ thoughts on this?

    April 17, 2023 at 4:19 pm #188998
    Nat
    Participant

    Well, you are both wrong to an extent as it goes like this:

    1) Carbines as a seperate weapon dont exist in the rules…so you cant give him something that doesnt exist!  Carbine models are counted as rifles in the rules
    2) Rifles are used as pistols while mounted (see below… dont have the page numbers as my PC rulebook is a printed to pdf ebook)
    3) Cossacks have a special UNIT rule that allows them to use their rifles as rifles whilest mounted…

    From the rulebook under cavalry special rules
    “Cavalry units can carry infantry small-arms, but the only weapon that can be fired whilst mounted is a pistol or a carbine in which case it is treated as a pistol. Note that carbines are treated as rifles when used by troops on foot. All other weaponry can only be fired if dismounted.”

    So you CAN equip your officer with a rifle ‘carbine’ (best choice actually as they cant use SMGs or assault rifles while mounted :/), & he counts as having a pistol only whilst mounted but a full rifle while on foot.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Nat.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Nat.
    April 17, 2023 at 5:58 pm #189001
    Neely
    Participant

    If you look in most (I can’t say for all) Cavalry units, the unit description specifically says “Carbines” or “Carbine rifle” or “Cavalry Carbines” so therefore get the carbine rules. While the officer unit does not say “carbine rifles” or “carbines” or, etc, therefore my opponent states officers cannot have rifles that can be fired on horseback.

    If you are indeed correct in 2) “Rifles are used as pistols while mounted” , then there shouldn’t be an issue, but from my memory – I think the rulebook states that “carbines” or pistol equipped models on horseback are the only ones that can shoot at 6″.

    Just FYI, this seems super silly – but my opponent was insistent and I just rolled with it for sake of gameplay time/flow.

     

     

    April 18, 2023 at 1:53 am #189002
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    @Nat, “Rifles are used as pistols while mounted” is not what the rule says. It says “… or a carbine in which case it is treated as a pistol. Note that carbines are treated as rifles when used by troops on foot.”

    Carbines are considered rifles on foot, pistols when mounted – that doesn’t make all rifles count as carbines, or even imply it.

    April 18, 2023 at 8:43 am #189003
    Nat
    Participant

    @StuartHarrison …what is “treated as” if not “used as”? – its that they use the stats and rules… same thing as being used as.


    @Neely     – as said, where in the weapon rules do carbines exist?

    In fact they are explicity the same entry!  If you look under weapons (again sorry cant give page number)

    “Type: this is a generic description that includes many weapons with the same or similar characteristics. In the case of the rifle, this includes all bolt-action rifles, carbines, and semiautomatic
    or self-loading rifles such as the American M1 Garand.”

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Nat.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Nat.
    April 18, 2023 at 8:47 am #189005
    invisible officer
    Participant

    “My opponent stated that my mounted German HQ could NOT have rifle carbines, as the officer slot in the Armies of Germany only state that I can have the models having: “pistols, rifles, assaults rifles, or SMGs”, specially – that I could equip the models with rifles but not carbines ”

     

    Wow, what a nonsense.  The Geman army standard rifle  in WW II was the K 98k.    Karabiner 98 kurz.     The standard German infantry and cavalry arm since 1935.   There was no special German cavalry long arm.

     

    Seems that guy has no idea about WW II arms.  Naturally a rule writer would not extra mention such a basic thing.

    April 18, 2023 at 1:37 pm #189007
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    @Nat, Carbines counting as rifles on foot does not equal rifles counting as carbines mounted.

    Carbines exist in the cavalry rules using the pistol weapons line mounted and the rifle weapons line on foot. Why would they need to be addressed separately in the weapons rules? If there was an intent for rifles to be treated as carbines, why wouldn’t they simply be referred to as rifles for rules purposes?

    Most cavalry units in the Armies of books come with carbines standard. The problem came in with the FAQ to allow HQ units to be upgraded to cavalry – for a lot of nations that should probably have included an option to be armed with carbines.

    April 18, 2023 at 4:20 pm #189009
    Nat
    Participant

    I read that as a clarification and historic usage (cavalary use carbines, we’re talking about cavalry so we’ll use the word carbines**).  But due to the way the book is written this can turn in to a circular argument*…. and so I’m going to agree to disagree  as the real issue is that Warlord do Frame work books not water tight rules… Yes I DID read them as water tighet when I started playing BA as well…..)

    *carbines are not their own entry but rather listed as rifles.. therefore all rifles can be said to be carbines… but carbines are listed in the cavalry rules therefore are their own weapon type.
    **Warlord have frequently put history in the middle of rules & on a couple of occassions put rules in history back ground sections… so
    *** not to mention miss entire entries out of books that are referanced elsewhere!

    April 19, 2023 at 11:56 am #189012
    invisible officer
    Participant

    Its the typical rules wording over real world BA tournament  fuss. One reason why I avoid these like hell.

    With the German army having no long Gewehr since 1935, but just a Karabiner / Carbine for all arms , that is just nuts. That a writer did name the K98 k by mistake a rifle is for some anal tournament rule lawyers heavenly given law. In WW 2 Wehrmacht the words got used synonimous.

     

    Having no swords in field service since Weimarer Republik the mounted German  OR had to use the K98k.  He also had no pistol. OK, spitting in the foes eye…..

     

    Mounted shooting was trained a lot.  Even some tricks like standing on horse back and shooting.  For that You need a superbly trained warhorse.

    October 24, 2023 at 1:23 am #189571
    L.T. Russell
    Participant

    Howdy Gents!  Neely, sounds like you ran into a serious jerk….

    I’m still trying to figure out a real reason you can’t fire an SMG or assault rifle from horseback.  It’s not like the sound would scare a horse that can handle rifle or pistol fire.  I’ve fired both SMGs and assault rifles, they don’t recoil any more that a rifle.  Is this just arbitrary?

    IDK invisible officer, I’ve got a repro WWI German Uhlan cavalry holster for a Luger.  It holds 2 extra mags instead of just 1….

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