Indirect Fire Minimum Distance
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Aidan.
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June 17, 2024 at 3:12 pm #190157
Charles
ParticipantI have a question about the minimum distance to fire an indirect round. I’ve tried searching the posts, but I’m not getting any results.
Page 72 of the rule book reads, “These indirect fire weapons cannot be fired at targets within their minimum range (see weapons profiles), measured from the center of the weapon itself.”
Here’s the argument. The rule book says target, not unit. I say that if any part of the unit is within the minimum distance, the shot misses. Others say you can target part of the unit that is outside of the minimum distance even if part of it is within and that the entire unit must be inside the minimum distance to miss. I’d like to hear other thoughts on this especially if there is a rule or FAQ that clarifies this.
June 18, 2024 at 12:41 am #190159
SteveTParticipantWell if you targeted a building that is 30cm long, of which just 1cm of that building is within your minimum range, are you going to say it fails?
June 18, 2024 at 1:02 am #190160ParticipantSteve. I can see both sides of this argument, but it’d be nice if there was something that clarified it somewhere. I get your point, but that would mean the building (or unit) would have to be completely within the minimum distance before the rule applied. It seems like the rules would have said “completely” within the minimum distance, not just within. A targeted building that is 30cm long, of which just 1cm is within minimum range is still a target that is within the minimum range even if some of it is outside of minimum range. Same for a vehicle, or unit. If the target is a spot on the ground, I could see that you can target something partially within the minimum distance, but that seems like a pretty big omission from the rules as far as HE shooting. The rule’s use of the word target instead of unit is confusing too as I could see interpreting the target of an indirect weapon like an off board artillery strike that targets a spot on the ground, not a unit or building. I’ll reread the FAQ’s, but I’m hoping someone knows a page in the rules that clarifies this.
June 18, 2024 at 8:19 am #190162
NatParticipantits clear… you measure to the closest part of the vehicle / building or model of a unit. If that is within minimum distance the shot fails
June 18, 2024 at 9:03 am #190163SteveTParticipantUnder VEHICLES
“…distances are measured to and/or from the closest point of the hull of the model itself”
Under SHOOTING”
Measure the distance between each firing model and the closest visible enemy model in the target unit.”
They seem to use Target and Target Unit interchangeably, even in the same paragraph
MEASURE THE RANGE AND OPEN FIRE
“…For example, a rifle can hit targets up to 24” away” and, later, “Every model that can draw a line of fire to at least one enemy model in the target unit shoots”.
All above is just about range and hitting. For HE, if you hit, then you can decide where to precisely place the template as per the guidance in the rules. i.e., its placement doesn’t affect the range.
June 18, 2024 at 1:31 pm #190165ParticipantThanks for the responses. You found what I was looking for under shooting on page 53. “Measure the distance between each firing model and the closest visible enemy model in the target unit.” means if part of the target unit is within the minimum distance, then the shot misses. At least I can point to a rule to make the argument.
However, I can still see someone arguing under this rule that if they are using a spotter to direct the mortar shot, and the mortar team itself can’t see the target, and the closest enemy model visible to the spotter is outside of the minimum distance, they get to shoot even if the closest model of the target is within the minimum distance.
June 18, 2024 at 2:44 pm #190166NatParticipantNo that fails because a spotter only provides Line of Sight EVERYTHING else which includes range is taken from firing unit
June 18, 2024 at 2:47 pm #190167SteveTParticipantWhat Nat said.
June 19, 2024 at 12:37 pm #190174Stuart Harrison
ParticipantQuestion has been asked before, Alessio responded but it never made it to an FAQ. Nat has it right and it’s measurement to the closest that determines whether minimum range prevents the shot, even if some models are out of minimum range.
Post being responded to was by Joshua Cope, 21 April 2019, Bolt Action Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/137052749798007/search/?q=minimum%20range
Had a read of the Shooting section and Indirect fire rule and this one seems clear to me. Units target units, and range is measured to the closest visible model in the target unit. So the target in the example is at 11″ from the mortar. This is inside the minimum range and therefore it cannot be hit.”I would still prefer to play it the other way – I don’t like the idea of a unit being immune to an indirect fire weapon just by having a single model inside minimum range – but my not liking it doesn’t change the rules!
June 19, 2024 at 4:41 pm #190176ParticipantThanks for all the input. I’ll be refereeing a tournament in a few months and wanted to make sure I call this correctly. I have always read it and interpreted it the was Alessio put it, so I feel better seeing that. I had a more argumentative player argue the opposite recently in a friendly game. Sometimes Bolt Action errs on the side of simplicity over what could realistically happen on a battlefield. I’m good with that as it keeps the game moving, but I could see his point.Same logic could be applied to a sniper that has an enemy squad figure within 12″ but wants to shoot at the squad member outside of 12″. Also, I still see a hole in the rules here when the closest visible model is only visible to the spotter and is more than 12″ from the mortar while some of the unit is within. Either way, these tend to be infrequent situations as having an infantry squad within 12″ usually isn’t good for the mortar or sniper. I think I’ll rule that if the enemy is only visible to the spotter, you must measure from the mortar to the figure closest to the mortar that the spotter can see as this seems to conform with the measure to the closest visible enemy rule. Let me know if that doesn’t sound right.
June 20, 2024 at 5:19 am #190178SteveTParticipantThe removal of casualties in this game is indeed confusing. When I started this game, my thinking was naturally that I was taking out the ones I could see first.
But you can fire at a group of 8 men, 2 of whom are behind a 20′ tall solid wall, get 2 kills and your opponent can remove the 2 that you have no LOS to at all.
Even with exceptional hits, you can pick one that your shooter could not actually have seen.
I know it’s for speed and I guess the rationalisation is that they are all jiggling about at various moments or suchlike.
June 20, 2024 at 6:07 am #190181AidanParticipant“But you can fire at a group of 8 men, 2 of whom are behind a 20′ tall solid wall, get 2 kills and your opponent can remove the 2 that you have no LOS to at all.”
Guess your sniper has a gun with a curved barrel or something. /s
June 20, 2024 at 6:32 am #190182SteveTParticipantor the old “ricochet off the cigarette tin in my pocket” saved me but not the bloke behind me…
June 20, 2024 at 6:49 am #190183AidanParticipantDon’t forget the old “fired my rifle in the air like a mortar over the wall” trick.
June 20, 2024 at 6:49 am #190184AidanParticipantIt’s amazing the lengths that wargamers go to when it comes to interpreting rules…
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