[Brin]

Hi Stuart,

Many thanks for the info, very much appreciated.

All the best

Brin

[Brin]

Realising the D-day campaign has now drawn to a close – would like to thank the Warlord team for organising such. Overall it has been very enjoyable to play the scenarios published.

Thank you

Regards
B

[Brin]

Hi IO,

Interesting, I have various Mausers but was never a great fan if honest – they are good hunting rifles. I like the action on Enfields when service rifle shooting, but much prefer the Mosin for distance work even though limited with the PU at only x3.5.

The photo album mentioned above was a private one and contained a number of images of both Soviet and German dead from the action – so doubt if staged.

Sleeping in barracks – think I only slept in barracks as group messing was during basic training, or when deployed. Now retired and getting to do all the things I wanted to do but unable to when serving… However, on occasion seeing re-enactors covering the modern periods I was involved with leaves one with an unusual mix of feelings. Remembering the motto – “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, and if it works use it..” I just smile and walk on by when I hear the ‘…they did this in accordance with the manual..’

[Brin]

IO,
Interesting but looks very copied from a text book and no actual experience.

No bullet flies on a flat trajectory. This is confirmed by the text book stats quoted in the second paragraph. A 7.92mm x 57 round might theoretically travel 4500m at max distance, however the angle of offset would need to facilitate such to begin with.
Using a K98k the magical distance is as quoted, that being 600 to 650m depending on the rifle, its wear, the charge powder and the bullet head size/weight/configuration is the distance the transonic point is reached and the MOA really starts to be amplified. In comparison the Mosin with its approx. 100m/s greater velocity stays supersonic until about 750m which is why a good Mosin 91/30 with matched (x3.5) PU optics and bracket or (x4) PEM optics was much preferred over the K98 with (x4) optics for distance work, especially amongst the Gebirgsjager community. Although the rare Zeiss x6 optics was also desirable for the K98k.
For moving targets, it is a function of speed. For faster moving boar and deer 100m is a good rule for running/sprinting targets. For slower moving humans this is 200m; the max optimum with the actual speed being used to scale the offset to be applied as a function of body mass. The Americans call this Kentucky Windage, and the technique is still practiced at vintage service rifle shoots. Agreed accuracy at 100m is far greater than at 300m but this is to be expected.

Static targets – hitting a full sized target at 300m with iron sights on a K98k is not a significant challenge, more a sign of competency. Hitting such at 500m is more a sign of significant skill levels, or 600m with a button hole sighted 5 or 6 groove Enfield.

Snap shot shooting is difficult at any range against moving targets. This is usually a function of alertness and breathing preparation which is complicated by the stress of the moment. The follow and lead technique produces far greater hit chances, which is what most shooters naturally try with the second plus targets when appearing. Moral – pays to be a winner, so don’t be last…

If you have a copy of the published photo images of the battle scenes around the first Kharkov there are some good primary images of LAH in 251/250s firing on the move, together with some PzIV doing the same – ooohhh not in accordance with the doctrine… One of the photo albums used for the krad in Russia publication sold at an Edinburgh auction house, it contained the remainder of the (now unpublished) images of the 24th PD Krad recon group in Russia. The scene showed the lead outfit (only one with an MG mounting) using its MG in a supressing role against a Soviet occupied farm at about 600 to 700m distance while the rest of the squad de-bussed into cover. Sadly the price settled to high…

[Brin]

IO,

So for you have not added anything new with the last statements other than confirming the use of firing on the move was to supress with accurate firing was while stationary – as stated above.

As you brought up the aspect of shooting at moving targets – a test of your in depth knowledge – shooting with Mausers (K98k, 934A, 937A or G98 variants) standard production items (not those selected for sniper modification) what was the max range practiced for shooting at moving targets..? I’m looking for the max range it was practiced at after which it was considered impactable to reasonably hit a moving target with iron sights…

[Brin]

Hmmm…
Just read a couple of the last replies and started laughing…

Ok, so why have motorcycle combinations to begin with – to get around faster – agree. The number of outfits fitted with MGs before and at the start of the war was minimal, as the main use was to get around. The fact that an outfit was not a stable platform compared to a 251 – not agreed with (and that’s being nice) – the 251, kubelwagen and schwimmwagen are not stable platforms while moving either as it is the same/similar gun mounting method!! Yes, I have often driven and have been a passenger in each of these vehicle types. An outfit is just as stable when stationary and not much worse when moving than a kubelwagen. It did provide a method of transporting a section MG and a base of fire while the rest alighted from the other outfits. Fuel use from a BMW outfit is very, very low in comparison to a 251, kubel or schwim but limited to carrying only three comfortably – the reason why I know – I own and regularly drive a BMW R71 outfit in the Scottish Highlands. Plus thanks to a good friend who is a Section 5 dealer have had the pleasure of firing a live MG42 in controlled bursts (with FMJ) from my sidecar while stationary in the UK. In addition, have fired an MG34 from a moving BMW R75 outfit in the USA, while serving, thanks to some good USN buddies and the wide open spaces of the swamp lands.

The fact that recon didn’t drive around with guns blazing is more to do with the fact they were recon and conducting the tasks of such. If fired on and a with a weapon to hand wouldn’t you use it to supress in return?? So if they were never used while fitted to the outfit, why in the tech manuals does the sidecar passenger has an ammo kasten of two 50rnd ammo drums fitted in front of the seat for operational use??? If you have never seen such look at the original outfits which were period fitted with an MG (not retro fitted or reenactor copies), the later ones also had a frame bracket for holding the passenger’s MP40 so as to facilitate full range of gun movement while seated in the car. Looking at the gun mount to the car – if it was never intended to be used, why did they have a fully lockable system across the full forward firing arc, on a 360 deg swivel and also has the option of the AA extended mounting bar? In addition, there is also the gun cup mount for fitting on to the spare wheel securing bolt for using the MG in a rear facing role while moving??? Was this all only for show or simply for carrying the MG as well? When the MG was not being transported in the ‘ready use’ position (on the sidecar) the original MG fitted outfits were often fitted with a MG transportation frame – this was mounted between the sidecar and the bike along with the ready use spare MG barrel case and cleaning rod.

Agree the latter bike outfits were not popular in Afrika due to the extra weight, approx. 100kgs for the BMW R75 over the earlier R12, R61 and R71 outfits. Parts for the earlier units were none existent so as they broke down (1930 technology was maintenance heavy) they were cannibalised and abandoned. Plus the filters and lubrication methods were not suited to sandy/dusty conditions.

The cost to manufacture and maintain a BMW R75 was the most prohibiting factor compared to schwimmers and kubels – plus schwimers can actually swim across still/slow moving waters.

So to place arguments on ‘it was not in the doctrine so it never happened’ is a little like the often heard comment of Assault Stug Gun Crews never wore black panzer uniforms after the field grey ones were issued…

Appreciate Bolt Action is only a game…

[Brin]

Hi All,
Why, other than the effective arcs of fire, is firing from a moving sidecar any different than from any other vehicle..? Do not agree with those who say it should not be allowed..!! Obviously modifiers should be applied due to the movement, but there is no technical or in game reason as to why not provided the sidecar seat is crewed.

If the discussion was about the pillion to a motorcycle firing any weapon other than a pistol would be more apt to be dis-allowed.

[Brin]

Agree with IO and Robert the German cavalry carbine based on the G98 cut down like the K98 but slightly shorter is a very good weapon.
I own a 937A which for those who known their Mausers is the 10mm shorter barrelled K98 made before WW2 for the export market as a cavalry carbine. The sound produced is slightly different than the K98 and slightly louder, yet the drop off measurements for your range card are very similar to the stock K98. The ears fitted to the foresight are very handy and prevent inadvertent damage (a problem K98s suffered from prior to fitting the sight hood).

Digressing slightly – to compare a SMLE with a 98 cavalry carbine variants…. The SMLE has a 10 round mag and a quicker action on the bolt whereas the 98s only has room for 5 rounds internally – so the initial fire-fight goes to the SMLE. At short range both are accurate to the accuracy of the ammo MOA. At medium range again both are accurate. At long range with standard iron sights I find both about the same. What is a distinct difference is the heat variation characteristics – the SMLE suffers more from heat deviation affecting accuracy than any K98 (or similar) I ever used. Have yet to compare with an original G98. So each has strengths and weaknesses – the SMLE for the initial fire-fight or the 98 for a longer duration watch and shoot scenario with high repetition.

[Brin]

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for the reply. Yes – the ravine will have to be taken into account, but maybe not on a modelled terrain..

Nery is of interest as I have the sword of Captain Richard Romer Claude Baggallay of the 11th Hussars together with an unknown Officer’s sword of the German 16th Hussars from the WW1 period.

[Brin]

Hi Dr D.,

Interesting, until searching had not heard of Captain H. Strachan of the CEF… An interesting read.
For 1914 I was looking at Nery as a possible campaign type game involving the 2nd & 5th Dragoon Guards, the 11th Hussars and of course L Battery.. As a campaign series of games will most likely look at combining aspects from the 2 Fat Lardies using heroes and causality/replacement aspects together with the medal awards, but much prefer the BA method of determining the flow of action with the random drawing of the action dice. Still considering if to use the Historical Warhammer stat selection or to opt for the more simplistic BA format – under consideration.

So yes – cavalry to be mounted and dismounted…

Q: Did the British Cavalry (Hussars, Guards and Dragoons) use lances in 1914? Or was it mostly the 1908/1912 (except for old timers) pattern swords and carbines?

Regards
Brin

[Brin]

Hi Robert,
Thank you for the alternative perspective on using BA for early WW1 encounters – really appreciated, and gives something to think about..

Dismounted cavalry – hmmm…

Regards
Brin

[Brin]

Hi Janos,

Thank you for the detailed reply.

WH Historical – The Great War and a copy of WSS, many thanks, will look for such with interest.
Again, many thanks.
Regards
Brin

[Author]

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