[East Norfolks]

Hi Al

Thanks for the feedback.

I may well have got some of this wrong – hence my questions to the forum.  However, please remember this was purely a very simple theoretical question on a 1:1 scenario of British Guard in line vs French Old Guard in column.  I totally accept that in a full game there is much more you can do (as Mike points out).  Anyway, answers to your questions are below:

– 8 H2H attacks for the French comes directly from the Epic Battles rules – see attachment.

– Same for the British Guard.  EB lists Standard as 7 H2H attacks, so 9 if large which, as mentioned, is what I am using for this unit.

– I didn’t talk about causalities as the thread was getting too long.  Also, I found it wasn’t that effective.  To be clear, I am talking about the Steady Line rule, pre-counter charge firing (so no Counter Fire +1 to hit bonus).  This means (I think) that before the H2H combat begins, the British get a one-off firing round of 6 shots hitting on 4+ i.e. on average 3 hits.  The French then save on +2 i.e. quite likely to take no casualties.  However, with shooting 6 dice, Disorder is much more likely to be inflicted on the French and, I find, is crucial for the British when moving into the combat phase.

– Completely confused on your First Fire point?  Have I got this totally wrong?  BP2 (page 102) and EB says you get an extra dice the first time you fire, not re-roll misses…

– Yes, I am clear on the Disorder and Shaken not both counting as a -1.  The point is more that I can never get the French anywhere near Shaken in this simple scenario.  As mentioned, the best opportunity seems to be on the first round of combat when the British have the Charging +1 bonus and hopefully the French have a Disorder -1.

Hope this is clear but I would be happy to receive any further friendly feedback if I have got it wrong.

Thanks

Attachments:

1. 

   EB-French-OG-stats-std.jpg
   

[East Norfolks]

FYI – just worked out what this is about.  The Epic Battles rule set has a new rule for French cavalry – “Cavalry Column of Attack”.  Sorry – bit slow to realise this…

Attachments:

1. 

   EB-new-French-cav-rule.jpg
   

[East Norfolks]

Many thanks for the comments – good to know I wasn’t doing anything wrong technically!

I actually started looking at this issue after re-reading a thread from last year on large units where we concluded that a large British Guard unit technically had the stats 9/5/3+/5, which seemed really powerful especially when paired with First Fire and Steady Line.  However, working through the maths and playing testing, they were still being beaten on a simple 1:1 basis against the Old Guard, which I was struggling to understand.

I’m still not sure if I quite agree with the balance here – would an Old Guard battalion in column really consistently beat British Guard battalion deployed in line?  It never happened in reality so we don’t know but all similar actions of other British units in line vs French units in column would suggest not.

Achieving a broadly equal position for the two Guard units would seem more sensible.  Garry’s suggestion of a house rule forcing into disordered line if the initial charge doesn’t break is really interesting – I’ll take a look at my CoE again for this.  Failing this I will have to rely on other tactics just as Mike has set out – I agree with all these.

Thanks again

[East Norfolks]

My understanding is, yes.  You initiate the charge process by giving a command in the Command phase.  Para 1 of page 30 says “we don’t worry whether it is possible to enact the charge at this stage”.

Note, a charge process can have several moves (up to 3) but only the move that brings them into base contact is the actual charge move – second section of page 59.

Also worth remembering, you can only charge into the enemy’s quarter you are already in at the start of your turn – second section page 60.

[East Norfolks]

Thanks Garry – yes what you (and CTG) say all makes a lot of common sense. Will have to think through my house rules a bit further…

[East Norfolks]

Thanks for the reply as always Garry but I’m even more confused now!

I follow the maths but I’m not sure what your final interpretation of the rules is?  What would you do in this situtation?

I really like BP2 and try not to get too bogged down by the technicalities (although I clearly fail on this sometimes) but I really wish these situations were more precisely worded – positioning units giving and/or receiving fire is a fairly fundamental part of the game!  I think it is one of those situations where more detail is certainly helpful and not overload.  Perhaps in an appendix with a clear diagrams and detailed explanations of a variety of situations…

[East Norfolks]

Thanks CTG – very helpful.  I wish the rules were clearer on these types of situations but your house rule does seem a sensible solution.

[East Norfolks]

Many thanks for the reply CTG.

Whilst I think your point makes a lot of common sense, I always struggle with this scenario as it is not what the main BP2 rules actually say.

P45 states “a unit’s ability to see is always judged from the centre of the unit’s front rank” and the diagram at the bottom of P47 says the shot is only “not clear” when “less than half of the enemy unit is visible”, which doesn’t apply here i.e. the red unit can see more than half of blue when measured from the centre of its front rank.

Am I misunderstanding the rules or is this more a case of common sense should prevail?

Thanks

[East Norfolks]

Thanks Garry.  That’s what I thought but then saw the attached section of the new Epic Battle rules showing Cavalry as an Attack Column.  Any ideas what this means?

 

Attachments:

1. 

   Cav-AC1.jpg
   

2. 

   Cav-AC2.jpg
   

[East Norfolks]

Thanks both.  Sorry to keep coming up with these technical points but at least your discussion above shows I wasn’t being slow on the uptake and that it is, in fact, not completely clear!

As per my initial post, I was also looking at the rule on page 36.  My thought now is that, strictly by the wording of the rules, you can reverse each base of the unit in line (keeping the same formation) but would have to deduct some movement for the distance travelled by the model on the outer edge of each base i.e. satisfying the rule “no models move further than the distance allowed“.

Basically, as you say, use a bit of common sense and agree the rule with your opponent at the start.

[East Norfolks]

Thanks Al – I agree with most of what you say except “all Unclear Target does is excuse you from shooting at the closest target”.  This is not quite correct – it also gives you a -1 to hit modifier which can be important, especially in decisive moments.

[East Norfolks]

Thanks Al

I guess on the Unclear Targets I’m basically asking whether to assess “less than half” on frontage or area, as there may theoretically be some situations where the frontage is less than half but clearly the mass of the unit is within the FoF.  However, I accept it is quite a pedantic point I’m making and I should probably just take the common sense approach – and p62 certainly could help when its a tight call.

Appreciate all the knowledgeable comments from you both – I’m sure it can be frustrating explaining this multiple times but it certainly helps a relative newcomer to BP2 like me get a much better understanding of the game.

[East Norfolks]

Thanks Garry – all clear now I think.

Just to complete the discussion, attached is a pic of the “FoF” in EB.  Implies, I believe, 18″ measured from any point on the formation frontage.  How this is consistent with the same rules saying to measure from the leader base is beyond me.

Anyway, as mentioned I’m going to ignore all this and stick to the main BP2 rules!

 

Attachments:

1. 

   EB-measuring-range3.jpg
   

[East Norfolks]

Thanks guys – really appreciate the input.

I agree with a lot of what you say but I do think that EB has “changed” the rules, at least in respect of range measurement.  As per the diagram below from p41 of EB, it is clearly being measured from the corners of the Leader Base.

That said, this thread has really helped me refine my thoughts and I will basically follow most of what you have both said  as below (and ignore EB).

Visibility.  Measured from the centre of the formation frontage.  Centre of Leader Base or Leader “model” will do as well but I really like the centre of the formation frontage approach – much more consistent.

FoF.  Flanks to be measured using 45 degrees.  Also, the unclear target rule for partial targets is only relevant on the flanks.  I don’t have BP1 but this was a bit a revelation for me – I was always unsure about enemy to your front being clear/unclear with only a small portion in range.  Will now always treat as clear (obviously assuming no other factors are relevant such as narrow gaps etc).

Range.  Also measured from the centre of the formation frontage.  I’m still unsure what p46 of the BP2 main rules means by “with a slightly longer range to the unit’s centre” though.  This seems to imply that the 45 degree flank angles should be 18” for range but this is then measuring from the corners not the centre, so will ignore this sentence.

My only remaining question is on the Unclear Targets again.  When a unit is partially in your FoF to the flank, what determines “less than half” ?

Finally, I’m not sure if the last comments are directed to me but I can assure you that “not reading the rules” is not my problem – I have read every line of these rules so many times it is making my head hurt!

Thanks again

Attachments:

1. 

   EB-measuring-range2.jpg
   

[East Norfolks]

Many thanks Garry – as always, very helpful.

Also, I just realised that (somewhat ironically!) I was not precise enough in my own language.  When I referred to “Leader Model” I meant “Leader Base” i.e. one of the four bases of a standard unit in EB, not the actual leader mini figure itself.  Nevertheless the differences remain and EB still refers to Leader Base numerous times rather than the center of the front rank.

Unfortunately I’m still really unclear on how range and FoF interact.  For instance, if an enemy column approaches a line from one side but is still clearly in its front quarter, the way the angles work can mean the enemy unit could be, for instance, 19″ as measured from the centre of the line but as close as 13″ when measured from the front corner of the line (using 45 degree rule).  Is this in or out of range for shooting?

Also, presumably FoF itself must have a max range?  For instance, in a different scenario, if the enemy column approaches the line broadly from the front and its leading base is say 17.5″ from the centre of the line (i.e. just in range) but most of the rest of the column is more than 18″, I always assumed that it would be “in range” but “not clear”.  Have I understood this correctly?

Thanks again

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