[Richard K Leclercq]

My primary source is Ian Hogg.
The shells of the 25 pounder weighed slightly over half as much as the 105.  The 25 pounder had 6 crew, the 105 had seven.  So with almost as many men and lighter shells, the 25 pounder could fire at a higher sustained rate than the 105.  When I served, during the cold war, I was in intelligence.  If war broke out, I would be assigned to “rear area protection” and used wherever needed.  I was trained briefly to fire the 105 (I was a gunner.  due to my size I was not nimble enough to be a loader)  in an M-60 and to serve on the crew of a 105 howitzer.  In MOPP-4.  The weapon I crewed was a much newer design, and we were very fit, but 3 rounds per minute was about all we could do for a sustained period.  For a “mad minute” yeah, we could get off ten rounds, but the whole crew would be exhausted.  (I had no delusions about what would happen if war broke out and I was in the Field.  Ivan had a battery of katyuska’s assigned to every listening post.  I would be blown to smithereens in the first 5 minutes.)

I am comparing the 25 pounder to the US 105mm howitzer.  Again, per wikipedia, the 105 had a barrel 22 calibers long, the 25 pounder had a barrel 28 calibers.  the six caliber difference is a bit more than 25% of the 22 calibers of the 105, a bit less than 25% of the 25 pounder’s 28 caliber length.  I have not investigated the German 105 model used in WWII.  I would assume the German model did have a longer barrel than the American model.  The American model was built purely to heave as much steel downrange as possible.  The German model was a field gun, like the 25 pounder, (105mm versus 88mm.)  It was designed to be used in both direct fire and indirect fire applications.  In Bolt Action or Konflikt 47, both the German and the American weapons are medium howitzers.  They would have the same statistics.

I do not presume to change the stats of the 25 pounder.  I propose to use the model of the 25 pounder, but pay the points for and use the stats of the US 105 howitzer (lend-lease.) Or, I could use the Brit medium howitzer, the stats are the same.  I want one model able to do the job of a howitzer and an ATG.  The 6 pounder was a good ATG, but they did not have any HE in the Brit. version.  I think the 25 pounder is under-rated as a light howitzer. I will agree that it is not as powerful as a medium howitzer as presented, if only for argument sake. I would give it the power of a light howitzer but an ROF of 2 (same target both rounds) and fire as a medium ATG.  But that much alteration would slow down the game.  So I will use the 25 pounder model to represent a medium howitzer.

For the cost in points, I would “buy” a medium mortar rather than a light howitzer.  The mortar in more mobile.  A light ATG would be useful if I were facing soft skinned vehicles or light armor.  There isn’t much light armor available, and all of it is allied.  I think someone has a German half-track.  While it is true that I can be facing a Brit or American army, the presenters in my area make an effort to have ally-vs-axis where possible.

Ich lesse Deutch ein bissen.  Ya takshe goverete po Russki.  My keyboard does not type in either language.

 

[Richard K Leclercq]

I’ve read Cooper’s book. I decline to use it as a resource for information. None of many WWII vets I’ve talked to agree with it. Cooper had an axe to grind. I do not share his opinion.

Wikipedia stats are: QF 25 pounder 6 rpm, 105mm 3 rpm, in regular use. Yes, both guns could do 10 rpm in extreme circumstances.

According to the rulebook, the Soviet ZiS-3 76.2mm fieldgun is a light howitzer and medium AT gun. Page 191 in the Konflict 47 paperback.

Please don’t tell me the 25 pounder is inferior to the ZiS-3.

If Warlord is going for simple and playable, why does the Soviet gun get the bonus the 25 pounder more correctly deserve?

The British had an excellent Army with excellent equipment. This is not reflected in the statistics.

A light AT gun is useful against soft skins and light tanks. But the models on the shelf are medium tanks or heavier. I have no motivation to spend money on a model of a 25 pounder when it is only effective against sidelines it will never see.

If the point of the game is: Allies are the punching bag, Soviets and Nazis rule, well, that’s what the rules show.

 

[Richard K Leclercq]

The British did use the Priest with 105 as well as the Sexton with 25 pounders.  By the time the Allies reached Germany, 105 ammunition was in short supply and the British had to rely more on their 25 pounders.  From the Nazi’s point of view, it mattered little.  25 pounder had a ROF of 6 per minute.  105 had an rof of 3.  In terms of weight thrown per minute, 6×25 pound shells, 150 pounds of steel on target from the 25 pounder; 3×40 pounds from the 105, 120 pounds.  25 pounder is a faster gun. It is worse to be downrange of a 25 pounder than a 105mm.

The 25 pounder was 28 calibers long, the 105 was 22 calibers long.  The 25 pounder had a 25% longer barrel, and a proportionally higher muzzle velocity and muzzle energy.  The 25 pounder had a Muzzle velocity of 532 m/s.  6011 kg/m muzzle energy.  The 6 pounder had 853 m/s muzzle velocity and a 2.8 kg shell, 2218 kg/m muzzle energy.  In terms of performance, the 25 pounder is a medium howitzer and better than a medium anti-tank gun.

25 pounder had a crew of 6.  105 had a crew of 7.

The US 105mm howitzer was designed in the 1920’s and was a mature design by WWII.  The 25 pounder first saw service in the “fall of France,” it began service in 1940.  The US phased out the WWII model 105 in the 50’s, a few ceremonial weapons are still in service, they were replaced by newer models of the 105.  The 25 pounder is still in service with smaller countries and “combat” ammunition for it is still being produced.  Older models of the 105 use “blank” rounds only.

Nato adopted the 105 as a standard caliber.  For this reason, it was phased out of the British inventory.

ALSO:  The 25 pounder had an HESH shell (High Explosive, Squash head) which was developed for demolition work, but was much better at demolishing kitties than a shaped charge of the same size.  HEsh rounds used by the Israelis have destroyed Soviet T-10s and Stalin IIs.

As such, the 25 pounder was, in reality, as good or better than the allied 105mm.   It was better as the medium ATG than a 6 pounder.  In game terms, the 25 pounder is much better being represented by the statistics of a 105.  So, I will pay the price of a 105mm gun, and use the model of a 25 pounder.  This is totally legal and not disruptive to the game.

The Japanese  did not face British equipped as well as those in Europe.   They never fought Finnish troops, or German troops.  These matchups are purely part of the fantasy of the Game.

 

[Richard K Leclercq]

Total Disagreement, as:
A:  The British used hundreds of lend-lease 105mm howitzers and
B:  In my educated and informed opinion, the 25 pounder was a weapon just as effective for its purpose as the 105; i.e. a weapon with good direct fire and indirect fire abilities.  The 25 pounder was a new weapon at the beginning of WWII. During the fall of France, the most common variant was the 25/18 pounder, a 25 pounder on an 18 pounder box carriage.

 

I have always been perplexed as to why gamers continue the completely foolish belief that Nazi equipment was wonderful; they had wunderwaffe, but allied equipment was junk.  Allied weapons were awesome.  Allied tech was just as good as Nazi tech, and better as the war went on.  One big reason was that many, most in fact, of the top scientists in Germany were Jewish, and they fled to the US and Britain, with their research.

 

The fantasy thet German science was better than Allied science is just that.  A fantasy.

 

So far as I am concerned, the 25 pounder should have an ROF of 2.  for 10 added points it can have AP ammunition that makes it a medium AT gun (it is an 88mm weapon, not a 40mm weapon, so a minimum of a medium ATn gun, like the 57mm 6 pounder) and for 25 points, it may carry the (middle-to-late war) APDS Anti-tank round making it a heavy AT gun.  but this is unofficial, and I won’t use it.

[Richard K Leclercq]

I’m going to use 25 pounder models and “proxy” them as 105mm guns.  I will pay the points for a 105, play it like a 105, and use the model of a 25 pounder.  No quibble on custom rules.  This will give me an excuse to get a Centurion when it comes out.

[Richard K Leclercq]

First off, the 25 pounder was a field gun, not any sort of howitzer.  It had a longer by proportion barrel and a muzzle velocity higher than any howitzer.  It was intended to engage targets with direct as well as indirect fire.  It was also designed for a high rate of fire, so the 25 pounder could throw 6 shells in a minute, where the 105 threw 3.  Six times 25 pounds of shell is 150 pounds of steel on target.  Three times 40 pounds of shell gives 120 pounds of steel on target.  It was bad to be down-range of a 105.  It was worse to be down range of a 25 pounder.  (The 25 pounder had reached the end of its design capability.  The 105 was considerably improved, even by Korea.  In 1941, or even 1947, the 25-pounder was at least as fierce as a 105.)

Along with the higher muzzle velocity came its ability to engage targets with direct fire.  Iron sights were built into the gun, making it a more effective AT gun than the 6 pounder.  Bigger shell, more muzzle energy.  The six pounder was much more nimble and easier to hide/deploy. The 6 pounder was also cheaper to make. The 6 pounder as a dedicated AT gun was the better option.

My agenda is simple.  I need a gun that has some chance of engaging German Tigers and Soviet KV-Stalin class tanks.  In real life, a 25 pounder did this.  In Bolt action, it will not.

BUT

The 25 pounder hit as hard as a 105 with indirect fire and a tad harder than a 6 pounder in a direct fire role.  As a “light howitzer,” its statistics do not come close to representing its effect in combat.

As a gamer, I’m not willing to shell out medium-to-big bucks for another piece of allied equipment that’s just a high value target for tigger.  I wanted to build my army around a pair or even trio of 25 pounders, but as the stats look now, I’ll be getting 105s (and Tesla’s.)

[Richard K Leclercq]

My point goes like this:  As a weapon, the 25-pounder (89 mm) should have better stats, and be more like a 105 (40 pounder) than the 75 mm pack howitzer (10 pounder)

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