[Raxonika]

Thank you for that .  Much appreciated !

[Raxonika]

So about the same level of checking as Cruel Seas before printing ?

[Raxonika]

The add on looks interesting, but are we going to get a new version of the rules with the original ambiguities and errors corrected ? This would be really good and would give additional life to the game.

[Raxonika]

Looks good. Nice scale and good looking models.

I rushed to buy Cruel Seas, which I do like, but is let down by some unclear rules and weak pre-production checking and errors (perhaps rushing to get it out ?).
A real pity.

So I am going to wait to see how Black Seas reviews and what comments it attracts from before embarking on this one.

[Raxonika]

Superb and really interesting detailed info. Very much appreciated. I love the scratch built models.

[Raxonika]

I’m not actually arguing here with the principles you express, and I accept that the book uses the word ram to mean accidental collision.

The book does not make reference to the intent of either of the two stated situations and although it is accepted that the rules of engagement were to avoid conflict with MGB and MTB in favour of large targets, and certainly in the case of the impact with the destroyers this was in fog, in the heat of battle people do what is necessary and sometimes emotions overcome rules – the book does not get inside the head of the protagonists in these incidents – it is not clear from the book alone, so the possibility exists that there was intent/ some intent to collide with the enemy.

It is clear that the British did, on rare occasions revert to impetuous attempts to ram, and within the context of this game, the opportunity should exist for all parties including German boats.

Having said that, if the system every makes it to campaign rules, then to take serious damage to your own boat would take it out of use for a substantial period of time.

I have enjoyed the discussion, but lets not fall out over it !
Kind regards

[Raxonika]

There are a number of uses of the word ram in connection with A boats striking other vessels in ‘Schnellboote’, though I accept that many are accidental incidents between boats of the same side, intentional ramming is a possibility – E.g. Ch 18. S176 rams MTG 497 and it sinks with the loss of 14 crew. In the same action another S boat collided with an MTG though whether or not this was intended is not stated.

May 9th 1940 S33 rammed HMS Bulldog and Kelly.(not clear if this was intentional – but the word ram is used).

I grant you that there are fewer references to S boats ramming than MTB’s/MGB’s trying it, but this is a game, there is precedent for it, and the possibility should still remain, however risky to the aggressor.

It could/should be a last resort, and clearly did risk and cause significant damage to the attacker, (‘MGB 333 rammed a damaged S boat and sliced the stern off but was forced to retire with it’s own damage).

S Boots may not have searched for fights with MTB/MGBs but there are plenty of accounts of fights between them whoever instigated the actions, and collisions/rams within those actions, whether intentional or not. Certainly, at least from the UK side, from the accounts of participants, some were definitely intentional.

[Raxonika]

Definitely Grey Goose class steam gun boats.

[Raxonika]

I also had the problem. I have suggested some alternatives and attached a file in the Collisions and ram thread further down the headings page. Comments on these would be appreciated.

They are perhaps a little too rammer friendly at present.

[Raxonika]

I have done some more research on this and:

I have found numerous further quotes from ‘Narrow Seas’ and ‘Schnellboote’ (I have the kindle versions and you can do a word search), in which ramming is referred to by both sides.

I would not say it was common, but it was definitely an option taken up by both sides in moments of impetuousness or desperation.

In Schnellboote there are also several honest records of accidental collisions S boats hitting S boats and R boats, and also accounts of near misses (dodges).

[Raxonika]

Yes. There are pictures and records of S boats with depth charges.

[Raxonika]

Don’t disagree with this quote or the S Boat strategies.

The British MTB’s sound like typical British Cavalry from an earlier era. Scott’s account suggests they charge in regarless of odds and there is another account in The Narrow seas, where an MTB rams and the bows ride up and then down into the S boat which later sinks (though it had taken a lot of other damage).
I will dig out the quote.

My suggestions are in need of polish,but I suggest them as an alternative (with some modification on damage perhaps). Don’t mind either way. What I was trying to do was tidy the collision and ramming rules a bit.

[Raxonika]

Attachment for post above

Attachments:

1. Collisions-and-ramming.docx

[Raxonika]

Can you explain the collision and ramming rules please. We enjoyed a recent game at the club, but none of the six of us could make head of tails of this bit of the rules.

Key questions are :

1. Only get crews can ram and these can be dodged fair enough, but if a non vet crew hits another boat then it seems that is a collision anyway and it causes the same damage as a ram……Don’t understand this.

2. An intentional ram where the bow strikes a hull – damage would depend on the attackers speed, and the rammed would cause more damage. Cannot see this anywhere ?

3. What speed are the boats at after a ram or collision ? Surely they slow down ?

Unlike most, I don’t want to write a load of house rules for an internationally available set of rules. I would rather have the same rules for all of possible, so would prefer advice / a ruling on this an an addition to the errata sheet please.

[Raxonika]

We have tried the rules and :-
The principles of a Narrow Seas game is great.
The rules book looks good
The rules have some good mechanisms
They are however not clear in some areas, have some holes, and have not been well edited or checked.
This is a pity and has got to a lot of people.

Warlord should consider a Live set of rules online so they can make corrections and everyone who buys access (or has bought the rules) can have access to a latest corrected version at all times.

We had a lot of problems working out rams and collisions. The way I read it only a Vet crew can try to ram, but when two boats contact they collide anyway. I cannot see any rules about speed change, and a bow rammed suffers damage in the same way as any other impact ( the account of rams in The Narrow Seas suggests that rangers suffered significantly less than the rammed).

[Author]

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