25-Pounder

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  • August 29, 2020 at 8:58 am #181144
    Kar98k
    Participant

    Richard, I think you are losing sight of the overall goal here. Bolt Action is supposed to be a fun, simple, enjoyable game that we can use when playing with our collections of WW2 miniatures. It is not a true battle simulation. In fact the designers of Bolt Action have simplified a lot of things.

    That being said, I just have to make a comment about your erroneous ROF statement. You said,

    “25 pounder had a ROF of 6 per minute. 105 had an rof of 3. In terms of weight thrown per minute, 6×25 pound shells, 150 pounds of steel on target from the 25 pounder; 3×40 pounds from the 105, 120 pounds. 25 pounder is a faster gun. It is worse to be downrange of a 25 pounder than a 105mm.”

    In fact, the ROF for a 105mm howitzer – according to the actual field log – is 4 rounds per minute (ROF of 4). However, in reality, the 105mm field howitzer had a much higher ROF. It was not uncommon for the 105mm to have a ROF of 8 to 12 rounds per minute, and this actually happened in the field of battle. There are several sources that support this fact, but the story from Mr. Cooper’s book Death Traps explains why 105mm gun barrels in artillery batteries were wearing out faster than planned.

    “The crew chief spoke up. “Lieutenant, as you know, the seventy-five-hundred-service-round charge rating is based on firing at four rounds per minute. When we’re firing a red-hot mission, we fire at least ten rounds per minute.”
    Dortman was incredulous that a gun could be fired this fast, but after witnessing several rapid-fire missions called by the 104th Infantry Division, he became a believer. All of the other gun barrels were in similar or worse condition. Dortman told Captain Sembera that he would recommend that First Army replace all the gun barrels immediately.”

    Long story short, both the 105mm and the 25pdr were capable of firing quickly when needed, and 10 rounds per minute was easy for a good gun crew. In terms of steel down range, 10×25 pound shells from the 25pdr is 250 pounds of hurt on target; 10×40 pound shells from the 105mm is 400 pounds of hurt on target. The 105mm is a more deadly field gun. It is worse to be downrange of a 105mm than a 25pdr.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Kar98k.
    August 29, 2020 at 1:01 pm #181159
    Richard K Leclercq
    Participant

    I’ve read Cooper’s book. I decline to use it as a resource for information. None of many WWII vets I’ve talked to agree with it. Cooper had an axe to grind. I do not share his opinion.

    Wikipedia stats are: QF 25 pounder 6 rpm, 105mm 3 rpm, in regular use. Yes, both guns could do 10 rpm in extreme circumstances.

    According to the rulebook, the Soviet ZiS-3 76.2mm fieldgun is a light howitzer and medium AT gun. Page 191 in the Konflict 47 paperback.

    Please don’t tell me the 25 pounder is inferior to the ZiS-3.

    If Warlord is going for simple and playable, why does the Soviet gun get the bonus the 25 pounder more correctly deserve?

    The British had an excellent Army with excellent equipment. This is not reflected in the statistics.

    A light AT gun is useful against soft skins and light tanks. But the models on the shelf are medium tanks or heavier. I have no motivation to spend money on a model of a 25 pounder when it is only effective against sidelines it will never see.

    If the point of the game is: Allies are the punching bag, Soviets and Nazis rule, well, that’s what the rules show.

     

    August 30, 2020 at 12:41 pm #181191
    invisible officer
    Participant

    If you trust sources that tell fuss like ” 25 pounder had a ROF of 6 per minute. 105 had an rof of 3. ” I fear there is no argumenting.   Just try contemporary German ones. like the Datenblätter 1944  Blatt   G 116II on the 105mm le FH 18/40.   Schuß min 6 – 8 .   For a short time like 25 pdr even much faster.

    The amo loading process of both was very similar. How somebody could get that double ROF is strange.

     

    Or the math they do : The 25 pounder was 28 calibers long, the 105 was 22 calibers long. The 25 pounder had a 25% longer barrel, … Ahem.    88x 28 = 2464 / 105 x 22 = 2310.   That’s 25%  ????  May be they don’t know how calibre length is calculated?

     

    Math apart the base is wrong.       25pdr    2.47 m (8 ft, 1 in) (28 calibres)    And 105 mm Le Fh 16/40 from German Wehrmacht Datenblatt mentioned above :   Rohrlänge in Kalibern L/28 ~  2,941 m.  They should have known.

     

    Do they ignore the   different HE grenade weight of UK  88 mm and German 105 mm?    11,5 Kilo Britih shell to 14,8 Kilo German.   3 kilo more. Hmmmm  1/4 more  Ah, there we have the 25%  .

     

     

    August 31, 2020 at 1:13 am #181195
    Richard K Leclercq
    Participant

    My primary source is Ian Hogg.
    The shells of the 25 pounder weighed slightly over half as much as the 105.  The 25 pounder had 6 crew, the 105 had seven.  So with almost as many men and lighter shells, the 25 pounder could fire at a higher sustained rate than the 105.  When I served, during the cold war, I was in intelligence.  If war broke out, I would be assigned to “rear area protection” and used wherever needed.  I was trained briefly to fire the 105 (I was a gunner.  due to my size I was not nimble enough to be a loader)  in an M-60 and to serve on the crew of a 105 howitzer.  In MOPP-4.  The weapon I crewed was a much newer design, and we were very fit, but 3 rounds per minute was about all we could do for a sustained period.  For a “mad minute” yeah, we could get off ten rounds, but the whole crew would be exhausted.  (I had no delusions about what would happen if war broke out and I was in the Field.  Ivan had a battery of katyuska’s assigned to every listening post.  I would be blown to smithereens in the first 5 minutes.)

    I am comparing the 25 pounder to the US 105mm howitzer.  Again, per wikipedia, the 105 had a barrel 22 calibers long, the 25 pounder had a barrel 28 calibers.  the six caliber difference is a bit more than 25% of the 22 calibers of the 105, a bit less than 25% of the 25 pounder’s 28 caliber length.  I have not investigated the German 105 model used in WWII.  I would assume the German model did have a longer barrel than the American model.  The American model was built purely to heave as much steel downrange as possible.  The German model was a field gun, like the 25 pounder, (105mm versus 88mm.)  It was designed to be used in both direct fire and indirect fire applications.  In Bolt Action or Konflikt 47, both the German and the American weapons are medium howitzers.  They would have the same statistics.

    I do not presume to change the stats of the 25 pounder.  I propose to use the model of the 25 pounder, but pay the points for and use the stats of the US 105 howitzer (lend-lease.) Or, I could use the Brit medium howitzer, the stats are the same.  I want one model able to do the job of a howitzer and an ATG.  The 6 pounder was a good ATG, but they did not have any HE in the Brit. version.  I think the 25 pounder is under-rated as a light howitzer. I will agree that it is not as powerful as a medium howitzer as presented, if only for argument sake. I would give it the power of a light howitzer but an ROF of 2 (same target both rounds) and fire as a medium ATG.  But that much alteration would slow down the game.  So I will use the 25 pounder model to represent a medium howitzer.

    For the cost in points, I would “buy” a medium mortar rather than a light howitzer.  The mortar in more mobile.  A light ATG would be useful if I were facing soft skinned vehicles or light armor.  There isn’t much light armor available, and all of it is allied.  I think someone has a German half-track.  While it is true that I can be facing a Brit or American army, the presenters in my area make an effort to have ally-vs-axis where possible.

    Ich lesse Deutch ein bissen.  Ya takshe goverete po Russki.  My keyboard does not type in either language.

     

    September 1, 2020 at 4:56 pm #181203
    invisible officer
    Participant

    Well, the US 105 mm use(d) semi fixed amo, the 25 pdr and the German 105mm seperated one. Much less fatigue with those.

     

    The German one had the highest muzzle velocity of the three, 540 m/sec. 25 pdr 530 but the US one just 472.

     

    Bundeswehr got a version of the US gun with a German Rheinmetal barrel.  L/32,  640 m/sec.    The USA never thought of getting it. Not like the 120mm gun for Abrams.  😉

    I handled long ago the 120mm tank gun round in a BW simuator as a guest , later firing some live rounds in Leopard II.   Loading not too tiring but shooting expensive for the taxpayer. In good old times they did that kind of PR with historians and others. Today Bundeswehr can hardly offer some MG rounds for that. Fe working big cats left.

     

    Today big amo handling for me? No,  30 years ago that historian was a young man, not the old xxxxxx of today.    Too many bruises.

     

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