Are the Soviets overpowered? Please convince me they are not! ;)

[Andi]

Hi there,
the topic says it all.:)
No, wait. I will go into details and explain myself.

In our local group the soviets are kind of feared and adored. This is due to the sheere amount of cheap but very effective units. I will provide a short list:
– 3 AT Squads per platoon (Dog Mines, 2 man Panzerfaust Squads)
Dog mines with a range of 18 inches combined with an andvance provide an total of 24 inches attackrange. both, the dog mine team as well as the panzerfaus team are small teams which makes them incedibly hard to kill. Additionally they can be set up hidden like snipers and observers. As if they were’nt good enough when fielded casualy.
– BA6: An armored car with 2 mmg. Even the British carpool can’t beat that.
Then there is the opportunity to have a flamer on that car. Again, besides the british flamer carrier there is nothing comparable. And that BA6 flamer thing controlls the battlefield like no other unit can, as it is wheeled and therefor fast. faster than den british carrier is.
– Free 12 man squad. Besides HE there is nothing which gets you that squad down in 6 turns. So this squad is basically meatshield of dual mmg squads which are far cheaper then the british 2 mmg squads are.
– Katjuscha: This thing can move and fire every turn. Sorry, what? Move and fire every turn? How do you put up like 20 rockets in a few seconds onto a big truck? I don’t know. They just keep appering up there and I just pull the trigger. Happy fireworx…
– Veteran Troops wearing body armor. They are wounded on sixes only.
– A Truck with 4 mmg’s on its back. Thats like 20 dice. This thing shreeds an entire squad within a single turn. And this thing comes in at 60 points. What?

Ok, there are some examples of what the soviets can put on the table. Since I experienced this first, I am constantly checking the other allied army books for anything compareable. I did this like 37 times, for about half a year…
Results: There is nothing, absolutely nothing similar regarding effectiveness and pricing the other allies can put on the table.
At this point I will not mention the US armored cars which are all considered open topped and therefore are pinned to death by unemployed artillery observers and friends.

So whats up here? Are the soviets overpowered or did I miss the British and US Army books part 2 in which all the true good units are described?

Please feel free to provide detailed information on how to cope with the horde described above or share general tactics on how to deal with the soviets when everything you can put on the table is worse and more pricey.

And yes, you are right. I am a bit disillusioned. 😉

Thank you very much in advance.

[Nigel Heather]

Interesting post. I’m just starting out Germans vs Russians but none of the units you mention other than the mine dogs.

Sounds quite convincing the way you put it – puzzled though why you are looking at the British and US to compete with them.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nat]

As a Soviet player… no they are not…. lets go through the units you’ve mentioned:

1, TTHs (tough Tank Hunters) they are still a two man unit that has a max of ONE pzf, SMGs still kill them quickly.
Dog Mines, have a 50% chance of hitting (they use their own to hit table).. dont forget snipers dont care about small team bonus and remove the model of your choice, also get within 3″ and you get a +1 to hit
2, BA6… its a 7+ armoured car… a PIAT will kill it…also it doesnt ignore the movement penalty when shooting so if hes using the speed hes at least a 4+ to hit, 5s in cover
3, Free 12 man squad, they are GREEN, dont forget that roll once you’ve killed one person…1 in 6 chance of getting an extra D6 PINs – i’ve lost a unit with 1 person killed by HE (3 Pins of the HE, rolled a 1 on the green roll…6 pins :'()
4,Katyusha – only ranges in on a 6, (then goes on to a 2+ if it hits) it ignores everything thing else
5,Vets in body armour… erm they are 21 points EACH (vet 13 + SMG 3 + body armour 5)(or they are engineers) meaning a unit of 10 is a 5th of your 1K list… dont forget that a HMG still wounds them on a 5+..
6, Its either a truck in which case small arms can kill it – you only need a single 6!** … or its the US M3 halftrack in which case its open topped… either way it takes up a TANK slot.

So if you are playing on a golf course (all open fields) then you are going to be hit due to volume of fire, just like if you are playing an MMG heavy German list.

To go against the Soviets you need a fully balanced list of Armour (even if its just a light tank ie DV 8+), Artillery, Indirect fire, SNIPERS* etc

Having said that … ban some of the soviet mid /late war theatre lists…such as stalingrad, seelow heights, battle for berlin, (as these allow multiple tanks, AT guns, snipers ect ect) until you are at least on par with the player(s)

*I’ve bolded this as they are my bane… one shot – remove a ZIS 3, one shot remove a HMG with gun shield etc etc

**also as a truck you dont lose +1 from heavy weapons over half range so a light AT gun is killing it on a 2+

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Nat.

[Stuart Harrison]

@Nat

A couple of errors in your reply:

“4,Katyusha – only ranges in on a 6, (then goes on to a 2+ if it hits) it ignores everything thing else”

Katyusha and other multiple launchers NEVER range in – “…but it’s chance of hitting never gets any better than a 6 (no ranging in).” p72, Weapons, Weapon Special Rules, Multiple Launcher, second sentence.

“To go against the Soviets you need a fully balanced list of Armour (even if its just a light tank ie DV 8+), Artillery, Indirect fire, SNIPERS* etc
…
*I’ve bolded this as they are my bane… one shot – remove a ZIS 3, one shot remove a HMG with gun shield etc etc”

Snipers can’t one shot an artillery unit, only support team weapons. A sniper rifle is small arms and you need a heavy weapon exceptional damage result to remove more than a single crew member vs artillery – p96, Artillery, Artillery and Shooting, Damage on Artillery Units, second para.

[Nat]

oh and I think your getting your Soviet Armoured cars mixed up…

Using warlord models you have:

BA-10* & BA3/6 have 2 LMGS, one is forward fixed the other co-ax in a turret with a light AT gun
BA-20** has either a light AT gun or a flamethrower
BA64*** has either an LMG or a HMG..

* – technically different but you can use the same model, sold as the BA6
** – no model, but this is the only soviet AC to have a flamethrower
*** – the version sold is the BA64, the B just is closed top & D(shk) version has a Dshk instead of the modeled LMG…

[Nat]

@Stuart –

Re Katyushas – shows you how many times I’ve used them then :p
that actually makes my point even more… they only ever hit on a 6!

Re Exceptional damage against artillery – you know I’ve read that section and it never clicked that small arms cant one shot the guns… learn something new every discussion 🙂

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Nat.

[Richard]

IAs a logn time Soviet player… the soviets have an impressive tool box of stuff I agree, but is any of it broken? Or that unique?

Of the bits that are properly unique –

Tank Hunter Teams – they are very good… at hunting snipers and spotters plus keeping enemy infantry in check I give mine an SMG adn a panzerfaust. With 1 Panzerfaust they aren’t much of a threat to tanks. Just keep out the way of them.

Dog mines (can’t predeploy remember) are very good value – but they come witha penalty they hit your own stuff too, big problem with an 18″ range. They are a good AT threat and possible a little bit broken when taken in great numbers.

BA-10/6 nice little thing 2 LMGs and a gun. Hardly broken jsut handy. And at 7+ a stiff breeze will see it off. If in doubt assault it – even without AT grenades (assuming you pass tnak fear tests) you can kill it.

BA-20 flame – there is a good debate about wheteher they actually existed – they are mentioned in the force lists of the era but no one has managed to find a picture of them. They can be scary but now they need to roll to hit and can run out of fuel too. 7+ armour again.

Body armour – always looked like a waste of points to me, I’d rather have 2 regulars than 1 vet in armour. Never felt the need to use it.

Katyusha – move and fire always seems an odd option for any SPG. Agree it’s too mobile and too cheap. Tends to get spammed too. But they do only hit on 6+ and have a min range of 18″ and are soft skin. Not entirely unique to the Soviets though. Germans have Nebelwurfers and the Allies have the Xylophones

Free squads – not entirely unique to the soviets, admittadly most nations have to buy some units to get a free one. 12man green rifle squads (no LMGs or SMGs.) can be handy but it’s hardly unstoppable. Assault them – they melt away… unless the pass their green test.

In my experience the Soviets have access to a bit of everything and they excel at rock/paper/scissors in that if you have a mission in mind you can build a soviet force to do it. But after that… they have some interesting things but not many broken units. They are mostly well balanced and I’ve lost almost as many times as I’ve won over eth years with my stoic regular red army men.

[Andi]

Thank you very much for replying and please excuse my late response. I was reading your replies but did not had the chance to answer.

On the topic:

puzzled though why you are looking at the British and US to compete with them.

Thats because from our local group no one is playing the germans.

1, TTHs (tough Tank Hunters) they are still a two man unit that has a max of ONE pzf, SMGs still kill them quickly.

That is true. But there are possibly three of them and my lists do not have 3 SMG squads that often. Going all SMG squads is pricey and you lose efficiency in long range combat. Unless one or even two of these TTH squads are taken care of they are covering a large area on the table and prevent vehicle movement which is nearly identical to having a vehicle killed.
And then besides these there is still other AT thread on the table. It is not possible to get your vehicles out of cover. If you do, they get penetrated by at least 1 Panzerfaust, 1 tank based AT gun, an armored car based AT gun and possibly a stationary AT gun. Thats 6 possible weapons that can kill your own tank covering the table completely when setup wisely. Even if you get one down, there are 5 others that prevent your own vehicles from moving.

2, BA6… its a 7+ armoured car… a PIAT will kill it…also it doesnt ignore the movement penalty when shooting so if hes using the speed hes at least a 4+ to hit, 5s in cover

BA-10/6 nice little thing 2 LMGs and a gun. Hardly broken jsut handy. And at 7+ a stiff breeze will see it off. If in doubt assault it – even without AT grenades (assuming you pass tnak fear tests) you can kill it.

The problem is not the car alone. The problem is the car in combination with the vast amount of dice the soviets are getting. And even in case you get the first die, the BA6 has recce. You won’t kill it. And if the soviet player gets the first die, the PIAT team is roasted.
This gets even worse, when you think of the above mentioned TTH and generall AT potential of the soviets. You can not accompany the PIAT by vehicles as they are getting roasted by the Soviet AT forces.

With 1 Panzerfaust they aren’t much of a threat to tanks. Just keep out the way of them.

That is the problem, as described above. You have to stay away from them and that renders your vehicles useless. TTH do not even have to shoot to disable enemy vehicles. Combined with other Soviet vehicles they leave just one option to enemy player: that is run.

Its either a truck in which case small arms can kill it – you only need a single 6!** … or its the US M3 halftrack in which case its open topped… either way it takes up a TANK slot.

That is the only down side I can see for that truck. But in a 500 points match, there is nothing comparable. I would take this one over every tank, the Brits or the US can bring in. Especially when considering how cheap that truck is.
And again. The Soviets are playing tons of dice. Most of the time, the Soviet Player has the first die and securely select a target for the truck, which gets annihilated and therefore will never get to fire back. If played wisely the truck will not get shoot that often. Especially in matches with low point cost.

Regarding the mentioned rock/paper/scisors, that is exactly where I see the problem with the soviets. They are completely disabling enemy rocks (vehicles).
If that 20 dice truck or the BA20 flamer is on the table they are doing the same to enemy infantry. You can not charge them without getting roasted and most of the time, the Soviets are having the advantage of more dice which gets them better chances to attack first or wait until the enemy has moved everything and then just picks easy targets.
So the problem with the Soviets, I see, is the combination of cheap units what gets them a lot of dice and then these cheap but very powerfull units which shut down enemy movement almost completely due to having that many dice.
And then there are the meatshields, either in number or in sturdyness.

The combination of these things is what makes the Soviets unique and quite powerfull.
When played wisely, I do not see a weak point, which I have identified in the british as well as in the army of the US. Neither of them has the power to shut down enemy movement the way the Soviets are capable of for cheap.

So, how do you kill 3 Panzerfaust Squads in one or two turns using infantry only when those squads are shielded by either a 12 man squad which throws 12 dice in close quarters and/or shielded by 6+ armored vets, which against you will lose close quarters in almost every scenarion, and/or shielded by recce flamer cars and/or shielded by 20 dice trucks?

And even if you kill those 3 Panzerfaust squads to get your vevicles to move, then and only then, you still have to face enemy armor. So to even out armored forces, you have to kill 3 small teams first.
Which other army does have a gamechanging if not gamewinning benefit like this?

[Richard]

Sounds like you need to mix your game up a bit.

If your tanks keep getting shut down – stop taking them and take more men. That means all those points he’s spent on AT are wasted.

Single PF are not a reason to complete avoid a bit of table, they are 1 shot, that his to hit, pen and damge your vehicle. The chances of a single shot gutting your tank are limited – risk it if you need to. (Bomb dogs are FAR more dangerous.)

Recce – if he recces then it’s gone down – turn wasted at least.

The Quad maxim target – if he opts to go first – great – put the target unit down. -2 to hit means it’s on a minimum of 5+ to hit. the unit will survive and you can deal with the quad maxim using something else.

BA-20 Flamethrower is a big threat – if it hits. But it’s flimsy your AT plan should be able to cope with a 7+ armored target with relative ease.

Big dice counts – get an artillery obsever or multiple launcher and splatter them.

Make sure you play a variety of missions too – foce them to attack or defend something. Vastly changes the dynamics.

The main thing that shows that Soviets aren’t over powered is they don’t win every tournament – there is a fair split of nations usually.

Any force if correctly handled can be extremely scary – Look at Steve Elias-Tibbs he basically won every event for a few years with a pretty basic US force.

Sovets have a nice big choice of stuff which allows them to tailor their force extremely well for any occasion – if you are playing similar forces every time it’s easy for him to create a force that will decimate your forces.

[Nat]

One thing that jumped out at me is Andi mentioned 500 point games….

Well with the free unit the soviets are bringing 600 points to the game (~20% increase in points) so yes they will seem over powered*.

Personally I feel the game is written to be played at 1000* points a side… I would also impose a house rule of 1 platoon and then roll at the start of the game for mission… try playing games where objectives are more important than kills. IE hold the cross roads till turn 5.

Dont feel that you have to play Kill Points (order dice scoring) or just stick to the missions in the books… write your own :p

*at low points the russian, british & french free units are worth more, when you start getting to the higher points the german rules of extra shots on all LMG/ MMGs is worth more.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by Nat.

[Andi]

Thank you again for providing useful suggestions.

If your tanks keep getting shut down – stop taking them and take more men. That means all those points he’s spent on AT are wasted.

I will give this a try. Even though it sounds most obvious, I had not thought that direction up to now. The reason here is, I dislike the idea of building a counter army. When I startet playing Bolt Action it was like, hey, every nation can put on the same stuff. Rifles are identical on every side. The same goes for at guns and so on. That was the point I got hooked. This was what I liked about Bolt Action.
Now that I know, I need to build my list and can not field what I like to, but instead have to build an anti soviet list, I am kind of disappointed.

BA-20 Flamethrower is a big threat – if it hits. But it’s flimsy your AT plan should be able to cope with a 7+ armored target with relative ease.

Here I got a problem now. When refering to the first cited paragraph and relying more on infantry, the brits are kind of limited when it comes to dealing with vehicles. I can put in one PIAT squad per platoon. If the soviet gets the first die, which he most likely will, as the soviets are constantly playing 50% more dice then every other nation in our group, then the PIAT is pretty much useless.
An AT gun is a stationary weapon. The BA-20 will never get into sight of that AT gun. So spending 75 points on this thing is a complete waste.
Is giving AT grens to every infantry section the solution here?

Big dice counts – get an artillery obsever or multiple launcher and splatter them.

As I am playing the Brits, I have an arty observer for free, every game. Every now an then, the british arty gets off some very nice shoots… every now an then… It is just not reliable. Most of the time the result is some pins.
Multiple launchers are not available to the brits unfortunately.
The only US multi launcher ist he calliope, as far as I know. Our US player likes to field a cheap and fast M3 instead. Is the cost of the calliope worth it?

Make sure you play a variety of missions too – foce them to attack or defend something. Vastly changes the dynamics.

Dont feel that you have to play Kill Points (order dice scoring) or just stick to the missions in the books… write your own :p

We are playing scenarios all the time. So far, the only scenario where I can see a chance to get a draw at least is scenario 8 from the core rule book where the attacker has to melee down the enemy officer.
Scenarios 1,2 and 11 are deathmatch. Not an option.
Scenario 3 where you have to capture as much mission targets as possible favours the soviet strength in numbers. Very hard to beat the soviets here.
Scenario 4 and 7 where you get points for getting units into the set up zone of the opponent are also quite easy for the soviet player as he has the most units on the table.
Scenario 5 where you have to pick up the mission objective from the centre of the table and get it to your own deployment zone is also more easy if you have more units on the table. You can shield the bearing unit easily and also pass on the mission objective to other units and therefore get it moved like 24 inches during one turn. The more units the faster and more easy the movement of the objective.
Scenario 6 where you have to destroy the enemy base… Ok. There seems to be a chance of getting a draw here as well. Winning? Not against 50% more units on the the table.
Scenarios 9 and 10. Holding mission objectives again…
Pretty much every scenario is more easy the more dice you have in the bag and so units on the table.

The main thing that shows that Soviets aren’t over powered is they don’t win every tournament – there is a fair split of nations usually.

Thats exactly why I am not saying but asking whether the soviets are overpowered or not. 🙂
As I have never attended a tournament I have never seen a Soviet player losing a game, besides one game from our local group.
From the latest impressions I got from playing against the soviets, I am quite curious on how this could be possible. I might therefor sign up to an event. I am expecting to see some errors the soviet players have to do. Otherwise I can not think of how it should be possible to lose a game as the soviet player when playing at least decent.

Sovets have a nice big choice of stuff which allows them to tailor their force extremely well for any occasion – if you are playing similar forces every time it’s easy for him to create a force that will decimate your forces.

Our soviet player is bashing together new lists on a weekly base. He is not going for specific counter lists against know forces. He is trying to play all the models he got. Which I think of as a very nice habbit. Having fun playing all the models you got is wonderful and as it should be, from my point of view.
Unfortunately I can not do this when playing against the soviets as it seems you have to create specific anti-soviet-lists.

Personally I feel the game is written to be played at 1000* points a side…

Yeah, I learned this now and will never play less then 1000 points against the soviets.

One thing came to my mind during the last days: As it is not intended to play western allies against the soviets, but germans instead: do the western allies simply do not have the tools to deal with the soviets properly and this is intended by game design?
Or should pretty much every nation be able to deal with every other one?

[Zouave5]

Long time player and tournament winner. I play USA, Germans, Soviets.
IMHO the Soviets are not overpowered. They have a few unique units but so does everybody else.
Most folks lose track of the game is designed as an infantry game. Tanks are expensive and vulnerable.
Buy cheap vehicles.
For a British player there are so many cool armoured cars!
Lanchester 6×4 2mmgs for 80 pts
Daimler Armoured car for 115, cheaper then his Ba6 and an equal match except for a lmg
Just to name a few.
Snipers to get rid of his dog teams, at teams and such. That is the perfect job for them. 1 shot 1 kill 1 lost die. I see most people use the snipers incorrectly by shooting at big squads to take out the lmgs, IMHO. Shoot to get rid of a die. Heck the sniper can kill the Katyusha.
Don’t forget the 25 pounder what a good gun for 55 pts and the overlooked 40mm Bofors another great gun for 60 pts and you can put it on a truck for the same cost. 2 shots at 72 inches +3pen it’s very hard to hide from that.
British light tanks are great also.
A9 cruiser, light AT, 3 mmgs fully enclosed for 125 pts. Just an example.
Also don’t overlook the Bren carrier, add a another lmg for a total 70 pts. Put your free observer in it after he calls in the arty strike and you got an 8 shot gun wagon driving around.
This is just my opinion but Soviets overpowered not really.

[Andi]

Thank you very much. Sounds all reasonable. I will check out the mentioned units and get them on the table.

[Felix]

Maybe also look around the forum. you will find and see that nearly all factions are somewhere proclaimed as being overpowered (or under-powered). You are not alone with your perception.

except the Greek & Norwegians though, they really got the short end of the stick 😀

It seems to me that you might be struggling a bit with using the mechanics of the game in your favor, i wrote a thing about how to play a while back that may give you an idea or insight on a few actions to take (or avoid) while playing against Russians, or anyone really.

Tips & Tricks to lose less at BA

hope it helps and best of luck beating the red horde

[Author]

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