Artillery and number of attacks.

[Doug]

I had assumed that each piece of artillery could make a single attack for each order it has (with multiple attacks for things like Organ Guns via special rules). However in looking at the untit profiles, it looks like each member of the crew is listed as having the artillery just like it has armor and a hand weapon and the artillery itself is just listed as equipment. Does this mean that a Dwarf Cannon with 3 crew member makes 3 attacks per Fire order and a Cannon with 5 crew makes 5 attacks per order?

• This topic was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Doug.

[Gerry Brawley]

THe Artillery piece has 1 attack ( unless specified like the organ gun as you say ). The crew have a HtH attack.

[Doug]

I’m not able to find anything in the rules that say that an Artillery unit only gets one ranged attack per Fire order.

I am seeing on page 48:
“Ranged weapons also includes artillery of all kinds,
such as stone throwing engines and cannons.”

Based on that I’m not seeing what in the rules would have you treat this entry:
“3 x Dwarf crew with axes, light
armour, small cannon”

any differently that you would treat this one:
“4 x Dwarf Ranger with big axe,
crossbow, light armour”

when it comes to making ranged attacks.

[Tim Haslam]

I can see the point your making Doug,
But stepping back from the detail, and looking at the artillery purely as a game piece. The ability to shoot 3 or 4 times is just far far too effective for the points it costs. Plus the fact that it works like every other rule set I’ve ever played, leads me to believe it’s a single shot.
If I’m wrong, I’m off to buy 10 cannons for my dwarfs!

[Doug]

Like I said, I assumed that a cannon was only able to fire once per Fire order but I can’t find anything in the rules that lead me to believe that’s actually the case. I’ve never played another miniatures game with artillery so I don’t really know how it works in other games.

The rules read like the cannon model is there to draw LoS from (and to) but it doesn’t look like it takes damage or takes actions on it’s own. I’m not even sure if the rules really address moving the cannon model. Can it only move as fast as the Slow 3 crew or does it have a base 5 inch move (it would still need to stay within an inch of a model in its unit)?

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Doug.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Doug.

[johngb1840]

I think the answer you are looking for lies in the Army Lists for each type of warband. For example a Dwarven Organ Gun (included in Version 2.0) has the special rule of Slow(3) which means its standard move is 3″ rather than 5″. In the Weapons Summary it has D6 x Ranged SV3 meaning that is has D6 shots each with a Strike Value of 3. A roll of 6 could wipe out an enemy unit.

You can find the updated Army Lists and the Rules Errata on Rick’s indispensable website: – https://thisgaminglife.uk/

[Doug]

If you look at the army lists the crew members are Large and Slow 3 but the artillery piece itself is not. The crew members have stats like Acc, the artillery piece does not. Each crew member is listed as having their armor, hand to hand weapon, and a weapon that matches the artillery type for the unit. That weapon is on the weapon chart just like a bow or crossbow would be. There is nothing that I can find that says otherwise. The closest thing that I find in the rules to instructing one on how to attack with artillery was quoted above and just says that artillery are ranged weapons.

If you don’t read the rules with any baggage you bring from other games, there doesn’t seem to be anything in the rules that would lead you to believe that each crew member wouldn’t get to make an attack with the artillery weapon with which they are equipped. That is unless I’m missing something in the rules. I went through the PDF searching for “artillery” and didn’t see anything that seemed relevant.

[johngb1840]

I see where you are coming from but this is probably a case of not overthinking a rule otherwise the rulebook could end up like WFB and become totally unwieldy.

[Doug]

Overthinking the rules is how you end up only making one shot per Fire order with artillery isn’t it?

[johngb1840]

I suspect that we will continue to have different views on this one. You could try asking Rick Priestly for his understanding of what should happen. If you do it would be great if you could post his response here so that we all can see what he says.

[AbsoluteZero]

Doug p.27 of the rulebook says,
“Number of Shots
Weapons and monsters with their own range attacks always shoot once unless specified as having multiple range attacks such as the Dwarf multi-barrelled organ gun or dragon fire. This is shown on the model or weapon stats as ‘3x Ranged Attacks’ or ‘3x Flaming Breath’ for example.”

And on p.134
“Chariots and monstrosities with crews have a composite stat line as explained in the relevant sections of the rules. In the case of heroic models riding chariots, a full stat line is given because these individuals can find themselves fighting on foot if their chariot is destroyed. Stats, equipment and any special rules not used when riding a chariot are bracketed thus [4].”

So yes, the rules are very clear that the stat line to shoot is the artillery piece itself. The crew do not ‘take turns’ firing it. Or else the Equipment would be in the individual crew men stat lines. Instead, Equipment is shared amongst all of the crew and thus only get the number of shots the artillery profile shows.

[Doug]

The equipment is listed in the individual crewmen’s statline. If the crew members aren’t firing the weapon, what stat do you use when you fire?

The quote from page 134 doesn’t seem to apply to artillery since it doesn’t have any of its own stats. Chariots and Monstrosities with crew list those items with the models and give them the relevant stats. That’s not the case with artillery.

[Mark Lewis]

Some ranged weapons are listed as having multiple attacks (e.g. 2 x ranged or D6 x ranged), otherwise the weapon gets just the one attack. I think the following statement makes this pretty clear: “Weapons and monsters with their own range attacks always shoot once unless specified as having multiple range attacks such as the Dwarf multi-barrelled organ gun or dragon fire.”

[Doug]

That doesn’t clarify things at all. If you look at the individual crew members they each have an organ gun listed as a weapon.

Further is the first line of the quote the equivilent of:

(weapons) and (monsters with their own ranged attacks)

or

(weapons and monsters) whith their own ranged attacks.

If it’s the first it covers crossbows, slings, bows as well as cannons and organ guns. They all have entries listed on the weapons tables.

If it’s the second, I’m not sure what it would actually cover since none of the artillery pieces (unlike monstrosities with crew) have stats with which to make attacks. If an organ gun attacks, how do you know if it hits?

For things to actually work as you suggest one of two thing’s needs to happen in the rules. The first option would be to remove the weapon that coresponds to the artillery unit from the statline of each crew member and give the equipment stats that can be used to resolve attacks. The other option is to add a rule that says only a single crew member in an artillery unit may use the equipment for an attack each Fire order.

[Mark Lewis]

You seem determined to not accept the obvious intention of the rules, which everyone else seems to think is pretty clear. I suggest you play it however you want to, but don’t be surprised if no-one else agrees with your interpretation of the rules.

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