Bazooka\Panzerfaust shape charge weapons

[Greg]

Ok, I understand how these weapons work against Buildings and against Vehicles but someone please explain against infantry as I have it you can only hit and possibly kill one man, and then firing it at a Artillery\Howitzer once again only one man again as you are actually firing at the infantry and not the gun, this seems unrealistic, should blow gun up and give a blast radius. Firing at Bunkers? Firing at defensive positions e.g mortars in pit or mmg team in sandbag pit etc. These feel should be the same as buildings as you are firing at the position which causes a blast radius.

 

Thanks

Greg

 

 

• This topic was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Greg.

[Peter]

Hi Greg,

If you shoot at infantry with such a weapon, it counts as a single rifle shot without a blast radius. The difference is the strength of the penetration.

For example, if you shoot at regular troops with a bazooka and you hit, it has a pen value of 5+. The regular troops have a damage value of 5, which results in a zero that cannot be rolled. As a 1 is always a failed roll, you kill the enemy model with a 2+.

Is that realistic? No!
Does that make any sense? No!

Unfortunately, this is just one of many rules in this game that have not been thought through to the end.
A 1” blast radius against infantry would have made sense in my opinion. Especially because these weapons are so expensive.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Greg, Peter!

I think so of it is the nature of what the weapon is used for and how it works.  I’m no expert, but I know a little and shaped-charge weapons don’t defeat their intended target (armored vehicles) by either blasting it with a charge of high explosive or punching a hole through it with an armor-piercing projectile.  A shaped-charge warhead starts a directed molten burn through the target.  So it’s BAD to be in the way of the jet of molten metal when it burns through the armor/wall/whatever, but it doesn’t have the blast radius of a high explosive projectile, nor is it meant to.  The catastrophic explosion that might result is generally, from ignited fuel/ammunition.  I don’t know if there are/were high explosive rounds for bazookas or panzerschrecks, I’m pretty sure panzerfausts were purely AT weapons.  I get the argument for shooting at a piece of artillery, it’s a fairly big target and I imagine any decent hit would disable the gun….unless you just burn a hole through a gun-shield.  These early shaped-charge AT weapons weren’t intended for anti-infantry work….

One guy’s $.02.

[Peter]

Hi L.T. Russel

That’s not quite right. Of course, the main purpose of a Panzerfaust is to fight armoured vehicles or infantry in cover.

Whether modern or not, the copper cone of a shaped charge becomes an armour-piercing projectile because an explosive charge behind it is detonated.

If you shoot such a projectile at so-called soft targets, you fight them with the resulting pressure wave and fragmentation effect like a hand grenade.

However, this has not been taken into account at all in Bolt Action.

The next problem is that you have more cover against such a weapon behind a wooden fence than in a building.

Bolt Action is a fantasy game and has nothing to do with reality.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Peter!

Like I said, I’m no expert.  My limited understanding is that the job of the explosive in a shaped-charge projectile is to ignite/force the resulting molten jet of the copper cone at the target, as opposed to spreading shrapnel in as wide an area as possible, like a fragmentation projectile.  The copper cone doesn’t become a projectile that smashes through the target, but a jet of molten metal that burns through.  I agree there’ll be some blast affect, but IMO it will only be a fraction of a similar size high explosive projectile.  I agree this seems to be something else Warlord Games hasn’t taken into consideration.  I disagree that Bolt Action is a fantasy game, but they could sure do a better job, IMO….

[Peter]

Greetings L.T. Russel

I know how a shaped charge works, because I’ve shot countless of these things in my life. The fact that the copper cone becomes a projectile is just easier to explain.

When you see for the first time what this kind of ammo can do through pure explosion, you think differently about it.

As I said, you won’t use it against individual infantry units. That would be pure waste. You have machine guns or other hand weapons for that, but you’ll definitely use it against positions.

I would have expected a different rule from WLG here. But I also thought that they would finally introduce hand grenades into the game system or dodge rolls for indirect fire.
My expectations for 3rd Edition were simply too high.

IMO BA is a fantasy game or let’s say it’s a fictional game. With the changes from V2 to V3 it has lost any relation to reality. It is definitely not a historical game.

The reason WLG still calls it that is because it sells better.

Have a nice weekend.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Peter!

I had a good weekend, then again when you’re an old retired guy, EVERY day is Saturday.  I hope you had a pleasant weekend….

My actual experience with shaped-charge weapons is limited, just some LAAWs, fired at armored vehicle targets.  I was impressed, but I believe modern AT4s, Javelins, TOWs, etc, probably back a little more punch than the old 2.36 bazooka, panzerfaust, etc.  If you haven’t seen it yet, check out MANNER GEGEN PANZER, a WWII German training film on fighting tanks with something besides another tank or dedicated anti-tank gun.  IIRC, it’s still on Youtube….

I’m guessing that units going prone under indirect fire for half the hits is “dodging”….

I gotta admit, I’m not overly impressed with Version 3 so far, but I’m kinda heavily invested in Bolt Action/Konflikt 47, so I’ll stick with it.  I’m looking more at scenario play now, although the group I game with has a hardcore of tournament players.  A bunch of them went to SLC last weekend, to play at Gajo Games.  We have a local league going on right now that’s fun….

Thanks for your time and consideration!

 

[invisible officer]

BA is not an exact reprentation of real WW II.  Just a fun game. For Panzerfaust 150 the German forces had a Splitterring that could be fixed and

made it into an Anti Personal weapon.

Similar got used  on the Stielhandgranate to change that blast weapon into a splinter one.

 

Other shaped charge eapons had an anti personal option too.

 

The problem with a game is that the real world offer so many variants of weapons and fighting that the number of rules to represent  would be nearly endless.

• This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by invisible officer.
• This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by invisible officer.

[Mike]

I don’t think Bolt Action is a “fantasy” game or a historic simulation.  Some authors imagine they are creating a game that is “historically” accurate, the truth is none of them are.  Historical wargaming is gaming and it is about a fun game with some “historical flavor”.   How they balance “fun” with “historical flavor” often becomes the subject of discussion with players arguing for or against a rule.

Eventually, I have come to realize that as long as the game is fun, it is better not to sweat the details.  However, for people that like a rule set except some particular mechanic, you can always test your own “house rules”.  So, if you think the bazooka or panzerfaust rules should have been written differently, they write them differently.  There is no rule against changing the rules.  If over time your thoughts align with others they often show up in future editions.  I have noticed that is especially true with Black Powder and its supplements.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy invisible officer!

Thanks for the info.  The problem I’m having with Version 3 is that the cost of panzerfausts has tripled.  I could see charging the Russians more, since they didn’t actually manufacture them, but this just seems like another way for the British owned company to screw over the German players again….

[Greg]

Thank you all for your input. I like BA it might not be up to the perfect standard to reality but works for introducing new players to the hobby and gives a fun experience.

I would just have liked it if shooting these weapons at fortified positions were dealt with as per buildings that alone would be more realistic and then firing them at Artillery and Howitzer were treated as vehicles as one would be shooting at the piece and not crew, this will result in the piece having dedicated damage value, possibly the same as armoured car\carrier +7 value. Small arms hit crew and HE and shape charges hit Vehicles, artillery\howitzer, building and strong points. Maybe house rule it as I’m not a tournament player.

That is my thoughts.

[Author]

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