Can Charging Units Fire?

[Mark Prichard]

If a unit is given the charging order but does not have enough movement to actually reach the targeted unit, may that unit fire during the fire phase?

• This topic was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Mark Prichard.

[Charge The Guns]

Hi Mark,

I think that the unit can fire.  On page 58/59, the paragraph ‘Charge!’ explains that “… only the final move in to touch is a charge …”.  So if you requires three moves, for example, to reach your target, but you only roll enough command for two moves, then you are not going to get as far as actually charging, you are just taking two moves towards your target.

Hope that helps ?

[Dave Morris]

I think “ Charge the Guns” is technically correct and there is probably some historical justification for firing immediately before charging, however my feeling is that to do so when you have not got enough command points to make contact is against the spirit of the rules. I refer you to the section “ State your Intention to Charge” halfway down p59. The final paragraph of this section has the following sentence : “ This rule isn’t intended to stop players taking a casual approach to such things, only to ensure that no unfair advantage is conferred, or embarrassment caused, when they do.”

IMHO  allowing firing when the commander has miscalculated distances or has gambled on getting enough moves to make contact does  confer an “unfair advantage”,  as it raises the possibility of that firing disrupting the supposed target of the Charge. This would make it less likely that the defending unit’s own fire would disrupt or shake their opponents when they give Closing Fire. In other words, it may be possible, but a Gentleman would accept his poor judgement and take the consequences!

 

[Dr Dave]

Dave is assuming a miscalculation when it could simply be that whist the brigade commander ordered a charge, the unit command thought it wiser to advance and fire. I’d always allow them to fire. The idea of a unit doing nothing is just… well…. plain silly.

[Dave Morris]

I am not assuming anything; simply pointing out that, in my opinion (which  is obviously not yours)  it is against  “the spirit  of the rules”. If you want to  advance and fire before finally charging in, give that as your order, don’t try to gain unfair advantage from bad luck on your dice throw or a miscalculation of distance by effectively changing your order to “advance as far as you can and fire,  before attempting to charge to contact in the next move”. We shall have to agree to  disagree, but as we are unlikely to meet on the field of honour, it is of no consequence. Good morrow to you Sirrah.

[Mark Prichard]

So how does the Swedish Salvo work as it allows Swedish Units to fire on a charge. Do they fire, then initiate their charge or do they they fire somewhere along their movement?

[Dave Morris]

Swedish musketeers (and McColla’s Irish brigade in Montrose’s campaign, who used similar tactic) get Hand to Hand of 4, whereas most musketeers only get 3. That reflects the Swedish salvo just before contact. If you wanted to, you could order an advance to within 6 inches before giving fire.Swedes have First Fire rule, so get 1 extra firing dice on first time of firing. Being within 6 inches means you get +1 on firing dice score. That should give you a good chance of disordering the enemy, so making their return fire less effective. You also have a possibility of causing excess casualties from fire, especially if you have managed to get some artillery hits on them,  so they are shaken and need a break test, which they may fail. If they  stand, they get to  fire at you, but probably only with 2 dice and, hopefully, a penalty for disorder. The following move you order the Charge, with a good chance of issuing the order and using your 4 combat dice against them.

This is, of course, just my take on it, but it seems to be within the spirit of the rules. If the folk you are playing with want to play it differently, it’s your game to enjoy.

[Charge The Guns]

Hi Dave Morris,

I’ve not interpreted the “unfair advantage” bit like that.  I have always taken it that we shouldn’t try and gain an advantage by declaring a charge on a target beyond the unit’s longest (3 x) move, which is the sense of that whole section.  But, as you say, we’re all free to play the rules as we see fit.

Hi Mark,

As well as the points Dave M makes re. Salvo it is also worth pointing out that The Devils Playground, and the To Kill A King, supplements have two different special rules for Salvo firing troops. After using both we tend to prefer the To Kill a King version.  Essentially certain troops can be assigned a Special Rule that allows them to fire a Salvo.  This must be at short range, and the unit firing can not have fired the previous turn. If a unit suffers a loss of stamina from a Salvo then it must take a Break Test, even if it is not yet over its Stamina total.  I think this is a nice little bonus mod for Salvo firers.

We’ve also been tinkering with a much crazier mod.  Changing the turn sequence to have Shooting before Movement. It is fairly subtle, but it changes a couple of emphasises.  Under this change, defenders get to fire at a closer range bracket first.  It also allows you to set up charges with fire power more easily / quickly.  It is definitely worth a try to see how you like it.

[Dave Morris]

@Charge the Guns.

I understand the point you  make re maximum movement and re- reading that paragraph agree that your interpretation is better than mine. I have only recently come back to Pike and Shotte rules, literally in the last two months, having last played in 2017 with a previous club, so still getting to grips with some of the subtleties and my new club mates have never played. I have a copy of “ To Kill a King”, but we are using the BCW Mods that “ Wargames Designs” put together before “To Kill a King” came out, so have  not taken  much notice of the special rules. The  “Salvo” rule is something I might make use of next time my NMA takes on the Scottish Covenanters! Clearly not without  risk, but with First Fire and Close Range  bonuses, should give a good chance of a successful outcome.

I have always thought that the move/shoot confers a significant advantage on an attacker (but perhaps that was what the writers wanted in their games?) and might try the shoot/move when we next play. Our own  club rules – which are very different to WG – use that sequence, but also use simultaneous movement with a shooting advantage to stationary units.

[Charge The Guns]

Hi Dave M, definitely worth trying out the Salvo rule. Let’s us know how you get on.

While our club likes all of the Black Powder rule derivatives the one thing the made us uncomfortable was the situation where a unit in defence, say a British line, was patiently waiting for the attacker, but the attackers rushed up and shot them before they had a chance to fire. Not a big thing but it was a niggle. For a long time we have played a club rule that if you moved more than once in a turn then you can’t fire. This quietened the niggle, but didn’t remove it.

We’ve now played quite a few games with fire then move, and have really enjoyed it (once we got over forgetting what we were doing and going back to the traditional move and fire by instinct!). Give it a go and let us know how it works for you. 👍

[Rough Rider]

I am intrigued by reversing the Move/Shoot sequence. Just so I am clear, Orders are given after Shooting is conducted- do I have that correct?

[Dave Morris]

@ Rough Rider

i assume you play as normal: state your intentions clearly BEFORE you do anything, i.e. Give your orders THEN do any firing, move the figures, defenders give closing fire if appropriate and resolve combats, if there are any.

it is only the order  in which firing and moving are carried out that changes.

 

[Charge The Guns]

Hi RR and DM,

I see the logic in the approach, DM, but the way we have tried it is to do Shooting first, then Command/Movement.  Partly this is because we would never remember what orders we’d given if we then did a round of firing, before carrying the moves out 😀.

[Dave Morris]

Isn’t doing it like that effectively just the same as RAW ? Really just splitting up the move in a different way? A player will see the effect of shooting before deciding what they want the unit to do. If we do try it, I think we will stick to Order/shoot/ move/etc

In our club set of rules, we use “ Order Cards”, which are laid face down against a unit at the beginning of a turn and revealed once all orders are given. Helps those of us of a certain age remember what we are supposed to be doing🙂

[Rough Rider]

I actually like both of your approaches. I suppose you could really chop it up:

– issue Charge Orders

– resolve shooting

– issue other orders and resolve charges

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