Firearms Issues

[L.T. Russell]

I wrote a topic a while back about what I considered to be problems with how certain firearms are portrayed in Bolt Action.  It appears that no real corrections were made in Version 3, and now some weapons are more messed up than ever.  I’m wondering if anyone at Warlord Games has the slightest idea how firearms actually work….

1) Why don’t pistols have “assault” anymore?  If there’s a firearm more useful in a close assault, I can’t think of it.  There’s a reason WWI stormtroop units carried pistols instead of bolt-action rifles.  Didn’t any of the folks at Warlord Games watch CROSS OF IRON?  Every time the platoon was in a close assault, Kruger pulled his P38 out from behind his belt and used it to good effect. I notice in Armies of Germany, the pistols have been taken from the Brandenberg troops.  Pistols are practically worthless now….

2) In what world, does a military riotgun have the same effective range as an assault rifle?  An assault rifle has a practical range of around 250-300 yards.  A shotgun loaded with buckshot is barely effective at 50 yards.  Shotguns are devastating at short range, should probably have either an extra shot or two, or maybe deal an extra pin….

3) An FG42, the cutting-edge fallschirmjaeger weapon, is an automatic rifle, not an assault rifle.  The FG42 fires a full-length rifle cartridge, just like a BAR, and has an integral bipod, just like a BAR.  Assault rifles use a reduced length rifle cartridge….

4) The MG34 and 42, and the M1919A6 Browning are the only actual LMGs in WWII.  Pretty much every other country’s LMGs are not belt-fed and so are basically automatic rifles.  To try and rectify this difference be giving a German MG one more dice of firepower is cheap.  A belt-fed 34 or 42 had double and sometimes triple the rate-of-fire of pretty much every other magazine-fed “MG” in WWII….

5) I get that a Browning M2 HMG is a serious piece of hardware, but now it’s some kinda wonder weapon.  Despite having a fairly slow rate-of-fire, it now puts out the same number of rounds, if not more, as a 34 or 42?  Ridiculous.  How does it put pins on medium tanks that it can’t even damage?  And now it has roughly the same effective range as a light autocannon?  IDK, no Ma Deuce I ever fired had a telescopic sight on it.  Sure the round will go thousands of yards, but the human eye can only see so far….

6) I like the idea of US rifle units get an extra shot for every 3 riflemen.  It makes sense since the US was the only army almost totally equipped with semiautomatic rifles.  It seems ridiculous that the Brits can chose the same ability as an option.  I’ll be the first to admit Lee Enfields are solid rifles, but they’re still just bolt-action rifles, just like everyone else but the US used….

Well, thanks for reading my rant if you do.  I welcome your comments….

[Kar98k]

3) An FG42, the cutting-edge fallschirmjaeger weapon, is an automatic rifle, not an assault rifle. The FG42 fires a full-length rifle cartridge, just like a BAR, and has an integral bipod, just like a BAR.

I couldn’t agree with you more. In fact, the FG42 was better than the BAR, but regarding Bolt Action (or any game), the FG42 and BAR should be in the same category. For those that don’t think so, read “Death from Above: The German FG42 Paratroop Rifle”  by Thomas Dugelby and Blake Stevens before giving an uneducated response. Or, even watch that Forgotten Weapons episode where they do a side by side of the FG42 and BAR. Spoiler Alert, FG42 comes out on top, but both do the same thing.

5) I get that a Browning M2 HMG is a serious piece of hardware, but now it’s some kinda wonder weapon. Despite having a fairly slow rate-of-fire, it now puts out the same number of rounds, if not more, as a 34 or 42? Ridiculous. How does it put pins on medium tanks that it can’t even damage?

Well, did you factor in the Hitler’s Buzzsaw rule? As for the medium tank, uhm, it does make one hell of a sound when hitting the armor of a medium tank. That should rattle the crew. Unless they are hardened veterans with ear protectors 😉

6) I like the idea of US rifle units get an extra shot for every 3 riflemen. It makes sense since the US was the only army almost totally equipped with semiautomatic rifles. It seems ridiculous that the Brits can chose the same ability as an option. I’ll be the first to admit Lee Enfields are solid rifles, but they’re still just bolt-action rifles, just like everyone else but the US used….

My guess this was a game balance tweak. (based from 1st and 2nd editions)

As for 1) and 2), pistols are still overrated in the game. If given a choice these were last choice weapons (only up one from a knife) in action, but shotguns is just a game mechanic thing.

[Nat]

The following two points are essential for understanding Bolt Action:
1) Bolt Action isnt a historical simulation game – its a game of the film /comic of history – this is true of ALL Warlords games.
2) All the stats are homogenised to give a feel rather than accuracy, and to make the game easier to play.

Also.. .v3 is just tweaks of earlier editions… but lets see
1) close combat was toned down across the board, and changes made to the total modifiers (and exceptions in the game) so yeah pistols lost everything movement & combatwise for game ‘balance’.
2) Watch Hollywood films or read commando comics … yeah warlord comics as well (yes thats where the company got its name from…. a 1970s/80s comic)
3) see above
4) The term LMG has nothing to do with being belt fed… but rather the weapons role, how portable it is & the ammo it uses… the Lewis gun (ww1 drum magazine) was an LMG, the Bren was an LMG (sickel mag) …the DP27 (drum magazine) …etc etc …
Its actually the medium machine gun that doesnt exist in real world terminology.. eg the British army called the Vickers a Heavy Machine Gun, from when they adopted the Lewis gun until the vickers was retired in the 50s… but for the game its an MMG.

I think that the real separation is the crew /individual nature of the users… both the BAR and FG42 were used by individuals where as all other weapons listed as LMGs were crew operated.
5) Its the same as the Russian 12.7mm Dshka… again its the hermoginisation of stats & gameplay … HMGs werent cost effective in game, couldnt be dropped in price because the knock on effect on MMGs so they got more shots!
6) This is again comic book ‘knowledge’ that the British could shoot faster with bolt action rifles than other nations could with semi-automatic rifles.  But it actually goes back to pre-ww1 when the British infantry were trained in ‘the mad minute’ rapid fire technique …each infantryman averaging 25+ rounds hitting a man sized target at 300 yards in (shock) 1 minute!  In theory a rifle platoon could put out as many .303 rounds as the regiments Vickers machine gun section….however this ‘skill’ died out in the trenches, the ‘mad minute’ exercise has come come back in to military shooting competitions, still using a bolt action rifle and the record is about 40 hits on the target.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Nat.

[Peter]

Bolt Action V3 is neither a historical nor a realistic game. With version 3, the decision has been made to publish a fantasy game set during the Second World War.
It’s not just the weapon rules, which very often don’t make sense. It’s the rules in general. I could list countless ones.

Why they decided to change the rules so much can only be answered by Warlord games themselves. For me it’s incomprehensible, because with V2 they had a very good foundation and could have developed the game further and made it more ”adult”. Instead, they went the other way.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Gents!  Sorry I didn’t get back to this for so long.  I will attempt to throw out some thoughtful comments….

Howdy Kar98k!

5) No, I didn’t overlook Hitler’s Buzzsaw, I just think it’s heavily watered down.  Besides being belt-fed vs magazine-fed, MG34/42s fired two to three TIMES faster the any other countries MGs.  I think one extra die is a rip-off.  I might buy into machinegun rounds rattling an inexperienced crew, but not regular or veteran tankers.  Have you heard of the armor concept of “scratching my back”?  You spray MY tank with YOUR MGs, to get these pesky “tank hunters” off.  It’s a real thing.  Nobody in combat wears ear plugs.  Heck, when I was in we never wore ’em anywhere except for qualification ranges.  I can only image how loud the inside of a WWII medium tank was during combat….

6) I get the idea of game “balance”, BUT everyone’s stuff didn’t work the same.  I wanna see some sorta historical difference.  Otherwise we might as well just play with generic units; tank, medium 1 each, machinegun, heavy, w/crew, 1 each….

I disagree about pistols.  In a war where most soldiers were carrying a 5-shot bolt action rifle, a semiautomatic pistol or a good solid revolver was something to have when involved in close-quarters battle, clearing trenches/bunkers, fighting house-to-house, prisoner escort, etc.  Why do you thing the FN Hi-power was so popular with fallschirmjaegers and waffen ss troops?  A semiauto handgun with a 14 round capacity!

THANKS for your comments!

 

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Nat!

Some a this sounds familiar.  I think we’ve had some a this discussion before, back in Version 2 days….

1) I disagree.  I think folks (like me) play Bolt Action BECAUSE it’s a WWII historical game.  That’s also why we play the different countries armies and buy the scenario books.  If I wanted to play comic books, I’d play Judge Dredd or Warhammer or Rogue Trooper or Marvel Crisis Protocol…

2) I get playability vs detail; HOWEVER I don’t want any more homogenization than is absolutely necessary.  Otherwise why even bother having different countries armies.  Just play with generic units….

Version 3

1) I’m not totally sold on the new close combat rules.  I don’t see ruining pistols as “game balance”, I just see it as someone who doesn’t know squat about firearms wasn’t willing to put in the effort.

2) Yeah, see above….

3) Yeah, see above….

4) The technical term LMG has everything to do with belt-feed.  It’s how you differentiate between an automatic rifle and a machinegun.  They both fire the same full-length rifle cartridge, they both have a bipod.   A “light” machinegun has a 2-man crew and is fired from the integral bipod.  A “medium” machinegun has a 3-man crew and is fired from a tripod, maybe with a traversing/elevation device.  Germans also called their MGs on a tripod a “heavy” machinegun.  I believe that just refers back to water-cooled, WWI technology/nomenclature.  The guns WERE “heavy”!  IIRC, some armies were trying to differentiate between water-cooled and air-cooled MGs.  And also, no one had coined the phrase for a “general-purpose” machinegun.  All these MGs are still firing a full-length rifle cartridge….

5) ACTUAL “heavy” MGs, like the M2 or the  DShK fire a 12.7mm HEAVY machinegun round.  They’re one step below automatic cannons.  EVERYTHING about them is heavy, even the ammo, but their value is their PENETRATION, the power of their rounds , NOT the number they put out, ’cause HMGs tend to fire fairly slow….and their ability to potentially blast anything up to some a the earlier light tanks, halftracks and armored cars.  HMGs are hell-on-wheels against light stuff, soft-skins, etc.  I remember shooting a Jeep in half, when I was on an M2 crew in the USMC.  IMO, the new Version 3 HMGs; too many rounds, ridiculous range, putting pins on medium tanks is BS….

6) What I recall reading about this “rapid” fire of Enfields was in WWI, firing at long range, at an area target (as opposed to point targets).  Basically using a lotta rifle fire as a substitute for machinegun fire.  I say this falls under the “cheaty” British concept.  Bolt-action rifles are NOT semiautomatic rifles.  Here they’re just ripping off the US, instead a the Germans for once.  What was the typical combat load for a soldier armed with a bolt-action rifle in WWII, was it 60 rounds?  Seems like an impractical idea to expend all your ammo in a minute….

Thanks for your time and consideration!

 

[Nat]

So… I see people seeing comics as only SciFi (Judge Dredd, rogue trooper, Marvel) but the UK had a long line of WW2 (WW1 /Korea /other history) comics with Command & Warlord as well as the original 2000AD and others.  Also Dan Dare, Johnny Red, Biggles characters … boys own adventures type of thing – impossible situations but the hero wins through!

So how much hermoginsation is too much?  where do you draw the line, HOW do you draw the line?

Look at the arguments about the FG43 … is it an automatic rifle or an assault rifle.. depending on your point of view it can be either or even both!

Bolt Action could have gone several different ways with v3….

As to how weapons work / BASIC history… well its rare that people in the UK have a lot of actual knowledge of weapons, and well lets be honest Warlords staff arent exactly top notch when it comes to history… casing point look at the Desert map in the combined Arms box – I got told that it was correct that the Germans were in Egypt and the Allies in Tunisa as “the Allies attacked from the West”.  Then we look at the games authors and ‘proof readers’ … the main authors have been game writers for 30+ years, but starting out in WHFB & WH40K….  <shrugs>  at some point we have to realise companies list to certain people, and those people only so we have to find the systems that suit us best.  And if its not BA then we move on!

• This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Nat.

[Peter]

Hi Nat,

I see it a little differently to you. Yes Warlord Games is outdated and in my opinion has the wrong authors and no experts for these topics…BUT…then they should ask someone who has the necessary knowledge.

Furthermore, they already had rules that were at least comprehensible for the game itself. The incomprehensible thing is that although they worked, they were changed.

I don’t mind WLG doing what they want with their products, but if you change the rules so that they no longer have anything to do with reality, you should no longer call the game a historical game, but a fantasy game.

WLG itself does not call BA a comic game. Every explanation refers to historical events and occurrences. See the MG rule for vehicles. The fact that some of these explanations can only be justified by the fact that someone was drunk or under the influence of drugs is another story.

They have lied in so many articles in advance, have published two rulebooks so far that are of incredibly poor quality and with the third rulebook, you can see where it’s going. The Americans now have wonder weapons, two air strikes and cheaper tanks. The British will top that.

If the goal was to make these two armies so strong again and not have a balanced game, they’ve succeeded.

There will be enough people who continue to spend their money on WLG and therefore nothing will change.

[L.T. Russell]

Howdy Nat!

Yeah, I’ve been picking up the new BATTLE ACTION comics by Garth Ennis.  They reference a lot a the old military comics.  NONE of that is how Warlord Games presents Bolt Action.  That’s why they published all those historical scenario books, with references to actual historical military personalities….NOT comic book characters….

It’s simple to tell the difference between an automatic rifle and an assault rifle.  It’s not “point of view”, it’s actual knowledge of firearms.  What type of round does it fire?  Automatic rifles fire a full-length rifle cartridge.  The ONLY ones with an assault rifle in WWII were the Germans.  The STGs fire a reduced-length rifle cartridge.  The FG42 fires a full-length rifle cartridge, hence it’s an automatic rifle.  I’m sorry Warlord Games doesn’t appear to have anyone who knows the basics about military weaponry, nor do they appear interested in reaching out to anyone who knows anything about military weaponry….

I posted about how articles on Warlord Games aren’t allowing comments anymore.  All I can figure is that they’re not interested in feedback….

 

 

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by L.T. Russell.

[JohnHotson]

If you don’t like the direction that WLG have gone with Version 3, then stop playing it, stop posting negative comments. Remember it is just a game, meant for fun and enjoyment with friends. If you don’t like a rule then agree to your own house rule.  At the end of the day it is all about FUN.

[L.T. Russell]

Oh, I’m sorry Johnny, I’m just trying to encourage improvements to Bolt Action by suggesting corrections based on knowledge and professional experience.  I’ve been trying since Version 2.  I was taught in the USMC to continually improve my position.  Well, you’re either part of the solution, part of the problem, or just part of the landscape.  I’ve got a fairly substantial investment in Bolt Action/Konflikt 47 at this point.  Guys in the Helena gaming group go to Las Vegas every year and routinely place in the Top 10 at LVO.  House rules have no effect on tournament play, so it behooves us to try and improve the game as much as possible.  So, do you have anything useful to contribute?

 

[Peter]

Hi John, so you’re only allowed to say positive things, you have to say yes to everything and you have to like everything? Otherwise you should keep quiet? That’s a good attitude.

It’s not just about having fun. If you invest a lot of time and money, you also want a good product. As a customer, I can say if I don’t like a product. If WLG had listened to the players and taken V2’s criticism seriously, we would have a good product now.

WLG is unfortunately stuck with their products, rules and rulebooks of the 90s. They didn’t introduce a single innovative rule in V3. Instead, they changed good rules, left out bad rules and even misstated rules in a brand new rulebook that were correctly explained in V2. I’ve never seen anything like this before.

However, if you don’t care about the customers, even lie to them before the release and just want to sell something, you don’t have to be surprised about the criticism afterwards.

The point can’t be to buy a rulebook and then, as a player, compensate for all the mistakes with your own rules and try to make the game meaningful just because the person actually responsible was too lazy or too incompetent to do so in advance.

[Kar98k]

I tend to agree with the points that L.T. Russell and Peter are trying to make, and sometimes it is important to explain to people (or WLG) that there is a real difference between a motorbike and a bicycle.

So, do you have anything useful to contribute?

Yes, but it would be better as a separate posting since it details the FG42, and how easy it is to fix in the game.

[Author]

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