HE hit on hidden target in building (Rulebook + FAQ)

[Steeljackal]

It is commonly accepted that HE shot against target in hidden set-up in the building ignores hit modifiers to hit, because HE shots against building ignore cover (aim at non wall not at target).
I think there is a “bug” in rules.

I apologize already for being verbose.

1- In “hidden set-up” unit is “hidden”, this is evident. From rulebook “BECAUSE SHOOTERS CANNOT BE CERTAIN WHERE THE ENEMY ARE, THE CHANCES OF SCORING A HIT ARE VERY MUCH REDUCED”.

2- To be “hidden” there is the requirement of being “ENTIRELY IN COVER to all enemies that can see them, or else OUT OF SIGHT”, and the “ratio” (Latin term to indicate the logic behind a law or action) of the requirement of coverage (or out of sight) for the “hidden” condition is that you cannot hide yourself in the open or in sight of the enemy, do not hide yourself if there is not something to hide behind. “hiden” don’t magically enhance coverage, rappresent unit hiding, unit out of sight.

3- In the “DOWN” condition the unit is thrown to the ground or is repaired completely / better behind any cover. Before I see clear target behind cover, after “DOWN” it is hard to see target because it is hiding in building and I have to search and found target before shot (like wrote in FAQ).

4- In the “hidden” condition, it is not necessarily thrown to the ground, but it hides, but even more it is HIDDEN FROM THE BEGINNING of the battle, and HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN. The penalty to hit represents the protection of the cover + the hidden condition (it is not known exactly where the target is, like explain in FAQ). Only after approaching or after the unit is shown it is known exactly where it is, and the difficulty to strike is reduced to cover only. “hidden” status does not magically enhance coverage, but makes it difficult to hit because you don’t know where the target is (in fact, roll to hit it is much more penalizing than just “down”, where you know where target is, before you saw target there).

6- From the FAQ “… DOWN in this case might REPRESENT the UNIT HIDING in the building and IF the ENEMY MISSES the SHOT, this might REPRESENT the them NOT HAVING TAKEN THE SHOT at all, and instead STILL BE SEARCHING for the target … ”
If “down” represents a unit hiding in the building, also “hidden” represents a unity that is hidden in building (it is self-evident) and even more it is hidden from the start, nobody have seen it.

So for not HE shot against target in building:
(-1soft / -2hard for coverage) + (-3 because hidden) = -4soft / -5hard.
But HE ignore coverage, then I understand that only (-3 beacuse hidden) to hit, beacuse missed shot may represent “UNIT NOT HAVING TAKEN THE SHOT, INSTEAD STILL BE SEARCHING FOR TARGET” (explain from the FAQ).

5- Similarly happens with INDIRECT HE shots, as the rulebook clearly states. Indirect HE shots IGNORE COVERAGE, but DON’T IGNORE “HIDDEN SET-UP” CONDITION.

In conclusion

DOWN – Unit you saw in the building until recently is suddenly hiding with “down”, then -2 because might not having taken the shot and instead still be searching for the target (FAQ say this).

HIDDEN SET-UP – Unit you’ve never seen in the building because hidden from the beginning, can you easily and always shoot HE without difficulty to search for it, no modifier to hit roll.
It makes absolutely no sense, and goes against the logic of the FAQ and of the rulebook (see also indirect HE on hidden target). I think rulebook and FAQ are more consistent if HE against hidden target in building have a -3 modifier for hidden set-up (hidden set-up modifier minus cover modifier).

[Nigel Heather]

I don’t know the BA rules that well, I have the book but still building my armies and yet to decide whether to go BA or Chain of Command.

But I had a quick flip through the book this morning and couldn’t see anything about hidden units. It doesn’t help that the book doesn’t have an index.

I have played loads of different WWII rules at various levels of organisation but I have yet to find one that deals with fog of war properly. Closest has been off-map plotting or using dummy units. Seen plenty that need to roll to see the unit but you still can’t get it out of your head that you know the unit is there.

What page(s) are BA hidden rules, I’ll have a look and get back.

[Steeljackal]

You have to look here:

Playng a game of Bolt Action – Scenarios – Scenarios special rules – Hidden set-up

In ebook rulebook this is at pages 223-224.

[Nigel Heather]

Thanks, page 131 in the book.

Remember I don’t know the rules that well but down seem to only apply to infantry and artillery receiving HE fire. Basically, they see the rounds coming in and they have a choice to go down – hit the dirt.

The -3 for hidden units is to represent that you don’t really know where they are – because as BA uses miniatures on the table you most clearly do know where they are and the opposing player can’t unsee that. It is one way to address hidden units, not a fan but all the different solutions that I have seen have their fault.

So if the hidden unit is not receiving HE then they get the hidden bonus but can’t go down. I think this represents that artillery shells are slow and you can hear them coming where non-HE hits you before you have heard it.

I would play it that if you were a hidden unit receiving HE then you also have the choice of going down. But he has to choose to do that before the roll to hit. If he does so then he gets the hidden and the down bonuses.

Now the special rules don’t give down as a reason for becoming unhidden. But you may want to play it as if he chooses to go down do you say that the unit has revealed itself for the subsequent turns. The moving about and diving for cover is like a move.

I may also play house rules that you would only shoot at a hidden unit if there were reason to. In real life they simple did not carry enough ammunition to blast away at scenery that might be hiding a unit.

So if you are approaching a hedge-line you or a building you might give it a burst. Usually, this was done not to kill or even suppress but to try to get a potential enemy to reveal themselves by firing back, popping their heads up or running away. But a force wouldn’t have pumped in loads of ammo of ammo unless they were sure there was a target.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nat]

Long version short…after the latest FAQ*, shooting HE at troops in a building just ignores the cover modifier, no other modifiers are ignored.

So shooting against a hidden unit needs 6s before any other modifier such as small, down, long range and pins

Indirect ignores every modifier (including hidden, pin) except it’s own ranging in ones…. as it only hits on 6 then +1 per turn if target is still within 2” of its positions

*sept 18th 2019

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Nat.

[Steeljackal]

Long version short…after the latest FAQ*, shooting HE at troops in a building just ignores the cover modifier, no other modifiers are ignored.

So shooting against a hidden unit needs 6s before any other modifier such as small, down, long range and pins

So you agreed with me that HE against hidden target in building ignores cover modifiers but not hidden modifier, so need a 6+ to hit (modifier for hidden in hard cover 5 – modifier for hard cover 2 = modifier 3 on roll to hit).
But many people consider the “hidden” condition simply as an “upgrade” of the cover, therefore they claim that the HE shot also ignores the hidden condition and hits at 3+.

Indirect ignores every modifier (including hidden, pin) except it’s own ranging in ones…. as it only hits on 6 then +1 per turn if target is still within 2” of its positions

From rulebook in “Hidden set-up” section: “If shot at by indirect fire, a 6+ is required to hit even where shooter and target remain stationary from turn to turn. In addition, hidden units can never be chosen as targets for air strikes or artillery barrages from forward observers.”
So indirect HE don’t ignores hidden condition.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Steeljackal.
• This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by Steeljackal.

[Nat]

Ok..re-reading the sections (instead of going off memory :p)

I can see where they are coming from in a RAW point of view as it talks about the cover modifiers being increased. And then HE ignoring the cover modifiers for being in a building would also ignore the hidden modifiers… Personally this goes against the spirt of the rules (as shown in the errata where it talks about you still need to look for the unit before shooting) and so I would argue that as its a mission setup rule it should REPLACE the standard cover modifiers and therefore still take effect against shooting HE against hidden units in buildings.

OR just house rule that you never get better than a 7+ to hit hidden units and be done with it.

Re: Indirect v hidden – ok I’d forgotten that the hidden rules replace the +1 range in mods

[Nat]

If they want to hit hidden units on a 3+ they should get a unit within 12″ of the hidden unit…

[Steeljackal]

I totally agree with you!

That is a raw reading of rules, a raw point of view.
But the “ratio” (Latin term used in law in Italy to indicate the logic behind a law or action) and logic seems to go according to our point of view

[K]

Hidden set up is a COVER modifier (-4 soft COVER/-5 hard COVER). HE ignore cover penalties against building, so:
HE against a unit hidden inside rough ground (hard cover) gets a -5 modifier to hit.
HE against a unit hidden inside a building doesn’t get the to hit penalties for cover (HE shoots directly the wall, not the unit, and the wall is NOT hidden!).
We can agree that rules are raw, but not the other points of view. These are the rules of the 2nd edition, everything else is home rule or personal speculation. Let’s wait for a specific faq or a 3rd edition book! 😀

[Steeljackal]

I dont want to say that I’m in right. But there is a big mistake /inconsistency in rulebook and FAQ.

From the FAQ “… DOWN in this case might REPRESENT the UNIT HIDING in the building and IF the ENEMY MISSES the SHOT, this might REPRESENT the them NOT HAVING TAKEN THE SHOT at all, and instead STILL BE SEARCHING for the target … ”
The WALL is NOT HIDDEN but shooter can’t see enemy behind that wall and don’t taken the shoot.

From the rulebook in “hidden set-up” unit is “hidden”, this is evident. From rulebook “BECAUSE SHOOTERS CANNOT BE CERTAIN WHERE THE ENEMY ARE, THE CHANCES OF SCORING A HIT ARE VERY MUCH REDUCED”. And more “Hiding During a Game. We do not normally allow troops to hide during the course of a game, but IF PLAYER AGREE troops can be ALLOWED TO GO HIDDEN during a game if they would otherwise qualify as outlined above and are GIVEN DOWN ORDER. Because this can slow down the game and makes some scenarios harder for one side to win we present it as an optional rule for experienced players rather than as a general rule of play.”

So:

If DOWN -> then unit hide -> then HE roll to hit VS building have -2

Consequently unit hide because in hidden-setup from start or from an down order during play -> then HE roll to hit VS building must have a -3 (or at least a -2).

[K]

Of course there is a big mistake in the rulebook (the same mistake that allows you to destroy an empty buildig at 3+, but if there is a small unit down in the same building you target it at 6+!!!). The fact is simple: until rulebook consider the hidden set up a COVER bonus it will be ignored by he against buildings. Forget about the meaning of the word “hidden” and check the rules. Sadly they are clear, and that’s a real bug to me too, but that’s how it works: hidden set up=bonus cover/he against buildig=ignore bonus cover…

[Richard]

Hidden is undeniably a cover modifier.
HE ignores all cover modifiers when firing at units in buildings.
Therefore, hidden doesn’t help vs HE when in a building.

The otehr stuff is fluff and irrelevant to the rules discussion.

[Greg S]

The ‘Hidden’ rules don’t quite live up their name. A unit that is is hidden is just a but more difficult to shoot at, except for arty and snipers.

[Steeljackal]

For arty depends. If is indirect fire, then always hit on 6+ and not ranging in (until scores a hit on target), in building too!!!!
From rulebook “…shooter cannot be certain where enemy are…”

Furthermore hide unit can’t be choosen as target for air strike or artillery barrage.

And indirect fire, air strike, and artillery barrage have nothing to do with coverage, but it can only be explained because the unit is hidden, you don’t see it, you don’t know for sure where it is (as explained by the reulebook and the FAQ).

It is clear that is a big big inconsistency in the regulation + FAQ or a big bad interpretation of the regulation (which is badly written!).
Or I could understand that it is an unsolvable issue, as the regulation still allows you to target an empty building to destroy it. But consequently this should not apply to mortars and artilleries that are not powerful enough to destroy the building!

• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Steeljackal.
• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Steeljackal.
• This reply was modified 5 years ago by Steeljackal.

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