Multiple automatic cannons. How to fire them.

[Teafloy]

Hello all

The rules on Multiple HE hits are pretty straight forward:

…” a good example is an automatic cannon shooting two small HE shells ever time it is fired. In these cases, roll all the dice to hit first, then for every hit scored place one template on the target unit as desribed above, except the templates must be placed so that they are in direct contact with each other without overlapping”

But what do you do when you have a device with multilple automatic cannons like the  20mm flakvierling and the Wirbelwind?

Is it like a tank with multiple weapons where, although all the quads have to be declared at the same target, you roll each weapon individually?

Or do you roll all 8 dice in one go.

If you roll all 8 dice when firing at say, a MMG team, the idea you can only get 1, 1″ template in play and the rest scatter around it seems mad and completly the oposite of what the weapon would do?

 

How do people play them please

[Jacob Carter]

While I don’t have my rule book on hand my gut reaction would be to resolve each gun individually.  Otherwise, you could run into situations where you could target a unit where you’re rolling 2’s, and then daisy chain the explosions up to 7 inches away to another unit that might have been on 7’s to hit.  I could be wrong about how those explosions can be chained together though, so I’ll double check the rules when I get home from work.

[Master Chief]

Bolt Action rules 2nd Edition page 105:

TWO OR MORE WEAPONS ON THE SAME MOUNT

If a mount has several weapons using the HE special rule (you cannot decide that some of these weapons fire armour-piercing and some fire HE, they must all fire the same type of ammunition), roll to hit and then place a number of templates equal to the number of hits scored. A brutal example of this is the German 20mm Flakvierling, which shoots four light autocannons at the same target, for a total of eight shots. If the player chooses to fire HE, then any hit translates in a 1” template on the target unit, as described in multiple HE hits on a target.

 

As for “daisy chaining” the templates, this is only possible if the target unit’s models are stretched out in a straight line. This is because the templates must be placed on the target unit (see below, Bolt Action rules 2nd Edition page 70). Even then the templates will still only cover the target unit (stretched out in a line).

 

Multiple HE Hits

In these cases, roll all the dice to hit first, then for every hit scored place one template on the target unit as described above, except that the templates must be placed so that they are in contact with each other without overlapping.

[Stuart Harrison]

The rule applies to ‘units or weapons’ that fire multiple HE shots simultaneously – it doesn’t matter whether you’ve got one barrel or 20 firing at that target unit, the same rule applies as it’s all coming from one unit.  The automatic cannon is just an example of a way you can get multiple HE hits.

[Master Chief]

Just to add:

Is it like a tank with multiple weapons where, although all the quads have to be declared at the same target, you roll each weapon individually?

 

Bolt Action rules 2nd Edition page 106:

When you fire one of these weapons, you roll a number of dice equal to the shots fired by each weapon, multiplied by the number of weapons. For example, a quad-linked HMG would fire three shots per weapon, for a total of 12 shots against the same target!

 

So a quad will have roll the total dice for all 4 weapons together, not individually, at the same target.

[Teafloy]

So, in my example of firing at a MMG team.

You roll 8 dice, you score 8 “hits” and place 1x 1″ tempate on the target unit and the rest, what, go wide?…….

Really?

[303in204]

No, not really.

You would get to place 8×1″ templates, the caveat being they must be touching one another (linked). Which guarantees you 3 hits, templates mean overkill is no longer possible with HE.

It takes some time and reading to get your head around it (autocannons are perhaps one of the best examples of the poor quality of rules writing Warlord has become known for) but there are a number of circumstances where firing AP from an autocannon is a much better choice than HE, even though the target is infantry or soft skinned etc.  This is true for literally every type of vehicle, every time, unless you are more concerned about pins than doing damage (and the HE can dmg, or you’re willing to take the 50/50 chance).

With 8 shots, you should be shooting AP at that mmg team, for the added pen, and the possibility of overkill.  Now were the whirblwind instead a crusader AA with only 4 shots, I might go for HE as it’s more likely to score more hits.

[Master Chief]

… but there are a number of circumstances where firing AP from an autocannon is a much better choice than HE …

Good point. For a single shot AP vs HE (such as the case of a Sherman), we should fire HE as even a 1″ HE template gives at least 2 hits compared to the Sherman’s single AP hit. For other cases it really depends on the luck of your roll, and the number of models in the target. So for the light autocannon it is a choice between

(a) more “hits” per successful to-hit roll (AP 2 hits vs 2 or more for 2xHE1″, as each template gives at least 2 hits depending on how the models are laid out)

(b) higher Pen (AP+2 vs HE+1) for damage and higher chance to kill

As the number of models in the target unit increases, I think HE should be the choice over AP, as it was intended to be … to cause massive hits.

[Greg S]

I regularly use a Crusader AA tank to back up my late war Brits.  The only time I use HE is if I am firing at infantry in a building.

Infantry spaced 1″ between bases generally can possibly need more hits than targets with 1″ HE.  So if I get 4 hits I may actually hit only 3 guys because of the chain requirement. *

AP generates more kills than AP.  And it is far less fiddly than chaining multiple templates.

I have a Wirbelwind in my pile of unmade stuff,  I’d hate to be trying to chain 8 templates.  AP all the way!

[Master Chief]

Infantry spaced 1″ between bases generally can possibly need more hits than targets with 1″ HE.  So if I get 4 hits I may actually hit only 3 guys because of the chain requirement.

The 1″ spacing is the maximum allowed spacing between models in an infantry unit, not the minimum. Hence many times the models will be closer to each other than 1″.

For 4×1″ templates to meet the “chaining requirement”, they have to be placed in a manner like a 2×2 square, such that each template is touching each other (or as close as possible). This should hit more than 3 models. But it really does depend on how the models are laid out. For example if the models were laid out in a straight line (like behind a wall), then AP might be a better choice than HE1″.

I too have an unbuilt Wirbelwind, and would love to chain 8×1″ templates on a 10-man target squad, but that’s assuming we rolled 8 hits. Assuming we only rolled 4 hits from the 8 shots, we get 4 hits with AP but with 4×1″ HE1″ templates we could possibly get more than 4 hits.

The extreme example is rolling only 1 hit with AP, but with 1 HE 1″ hit, the 1″ template will hit at least 2 models.

[Limonka]

How would multiple HE work against a building?

Would an autocannon deal 2D3 hits or just the standard D3?

[Master Chief]

It should be D3 damage for every hit scored, but they suffer only one batch of D2 pins as stated on page 72 of the 2nd Edition rulebook.

[Limonka]

Okay so does that mean if a flakvierling hits with all 8 shots, the building would receive 8D3 hits?

[Master Chief]

Yes that’s my interpretation of the rules. If the target unit is not in a building, it gets 8×1″ templates. If it is in a building it gets 8xD3 hits, assuming all 8 shots hit.

[Limonka]

Wow that’s brutal. Thanks for the clarification 🙂

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