Soviet dog mine

[Nick]

New player here playing Soviets. Not sure how dog mine works. What order is given ? Fire , advance , run(in case this is a assault).Can unit advance 6″ than dogs run 18 ? Other than ambush can the target get a shot at dogs. I checked and didn’t see anything about any of this. What can NCO and handler do if not tied up unleashing the hounds ? Can dogs be unleashed if on ambush ? To many questions to even think about using.
Thanks

[Stuart Harrison]

The dog mine is fired and doesn’t have the fixed rule so you can fire it using a Fire order or an Advance order. It has it’s own “to hit” resolution method for the shot so no modifiers from the normal “to hit” process would apply.

You can’t shoot at it coming in, that possibility is taken into account with the 2-3 results – other than the to hit roll, think of it like any other one shot weapon (ie: a longer ranged fur-coated panzerfaust!).

[Nick]

Thanks . that was very helpful.

[Alan Tibbetts]

Also, the dogs are “ammunition” not team members (a 4-legged Panzerfaust), only the men count as targets, casualties and for spotting.

[Yuriy]

Obviously, SOVIET DOG MINE cannot ambush to attack with a dog. As in the book of the Soviet Union, the rule of using dogs is written like this:
“Dog miners can only target stationary vehicles (i.e. any vehicle that is not sporting an order dice showing a Run or Advance order).”

Another question is who carries this 4-legged Panzerfaust, NCO or the entire squad to the last surviving soldier.

[Stuart Harrison]

@ Yuriy – Team composition is “2 handlers – NCO and private” each member of the dog mine team is a handler and is equipped the same – rifle, anti tank grenades and a dog mine – unless you pay for the option of SMGs.

If you have one left with a dog and the other/others have already fired your opponent could remove the one with a dog using exceptional damage and the dog is lost exactly the same as any other piece of equipment carried by an individual.

[Yuriy]

Yes, indeed, my mistake, I inattentively read the rules, 2 soldiers and each armed with a dog. and you can add 2 more, which will also be armed with a dog … now I will always take this squad into my army!

[Master Chief]

I have mostly played US up to this point, and recently completed a small British 8th Army army. I will be starting a Soviet Army soon and I think it has interesting choices like Dog-mines team, Tank Riders squad and ‘Tank Hunters’ anti-tank team. I am particularly keen to try out the Tank Hunters team.

[Yuriy]

I also have the main/first – US, as we have in the community (we are still four people in the city/on the island), the majority (two out of four) have gathered Japan.
I now have the United States for 1500-2000, recently completed the Wehrmacht of the late on ~ 2000, now I am collecting the Red Army.

It seems to me that the ampoulomet is also an excellent choice.

• This reply was modified 5 years, 5 months ago by Yuriy.

[akaean]

I don’t run the dog mines for personal reasons. They didn’t work so well historically and I feel bad about exploding puppies.

I do have a pair of Ampulomets and I really enjoy those. Like dog mines they are only historically accurate for very early war- but something about a spud gun firing a glass globule of fire and death is adorable to me. In terms of gameplay, think of them as cheap light howitzers with a short range and no indirect fire. They aren’t great for moving up the field but they can do some mean area denial.

I also have a soft spot for Tank Hunter Teams. I run them as 4 veteran smgs with a faust. Forward deploy let’s em start in aggressive positions and they can apply a lot of pressure to slow or halt an enemy advance to let your forces take better positions. If they are ignored they can run amok and assassinate enemy small teams like officers and snipers. They aren’t great vehicle killers, but they have enough teeth to make most tanks weary of coming within their faust range. I lovingly call them wetwork teams.

[Master Chief]

Thanks for sharing your insights. I know of a local Soviet player here who also does not play dog-mine teams because his wife disallows him from doing so. I will definitely try out the tank hunters teams.

[Alan Tibbetts]

Mine Dogs are an okay AT choice, no negative DRMs for moving, range or inexperienced. I always buy inexperienced.

Ampulomet is a better anti-personnel weapon than an AT weapon (only 2 Pen).

Buying Panzerfaust for your Guards and other squads that can have them is a cheap alternative.

Paying 2 points per figure to give squads AT grenades is overlooked.

[akaean]

Paying 2 points per figure to give squads AT grenades is overlooked.

I think AT grenades are a bit too pricey for what they are worth honestly. I have played a lot with my Soviets, including the free AT grenades on my Green Rifle Squad, and since I like Tank Hunters for their infiltration and panzerfaust, I have used their AT Grenades and “tough tank hunters” somewhat frequently as well.

Despite this, very very seldom do I feel that my AT grenades do much of anything really. The reasons for this are roughly 3 fold.
1) they are only effective against enclosed vehicles. Many vehicles in BA are open topped. Including a large number of armored cars, etc. Open topped units do not cause tank fear tests when declaring a charge against them, and they are destroyed by any result on the damage table. So against an open topped vehicle, any glance will kill it. They are even less necessary vs transports, since transports die automatically if they are the closest target or their contents must disembark to engage in CC if they are charged. So you don’t need any specific AT gear to engage with transports, including through charging.

2) They are pretty inconsistent at what they do. Melee vs vehicles in Bolt Action is pretty rough, all told. The hit modifiers are absolutely brutal. 4+ vs a stationary target, if it advances you are on 6+, and if it runs it is impossible to hit. This roughly translates to 1 hit per two guys. Ten infantry, charging with anti tank grenades against a stationary tank, should expect to generate a single strength 5 hit. This doesn’t sound too bad until you consider a few things. That is twenty points of war gear for those models. It requires the vehicle to be stationary, as if the vehicle advances those ten guys should expect to translate into roughly a strength 1 or 2 hit. It is applied against front armour. So the heavier the tank, the less reliable charging against it will be. Finally, charging is far higher risk than just shooting the tank with AT assets. charging a vehicle will frequently cause your infantry to become over extended and left in the open after the maneuver, this is a big problem when the odds of those infantry actually wrecking the tank aren’t particularly high, in perfect conditions they can do what a medium AT gun can do from across the board. Finally, remember those points you are spending are almost totally unneeded against any open topped or transport vehicles you would wish to engage. Making those points spent highly circumstantial.

3) Finally, AT grenades are effectively limited to the size of the squad. Ten guys with AT grenades charging may be able to do something, 4 guys with AT grenades will not be a threat to any tank. AT Grenades need to be purchased for the whole squad, but they are a piece of wargear that effectively gets turned off as the squad takes casualties throughout the game. Compared to a Panzerfaust, which is just as effective no matter how many other casualties the squad has taken throughout the game.

More often then not. Anti Tank Grenades and vehicle assaults are some of the rules that should probably be rewritten if BA gets a third edition at some point. The risk is too high, the reward is too low, and the cost is too high for a piece of kit that you never intend to use. Perhaps the most glaring issue is that AT grenades don’t do anything to help the most common vehicles that you would actually *want* to assault with infantry- namely enemy transports, softskins, or AV 7+ open topped vehicles. Not having to take the tank fear test is strong, but its a rule that doesn’t come up frequently, and its not worth the extra 20+ points per squad you need to pay to make them effective. And for most people running 7 man veteran squads they are even more of a questionable purchase, as 7 guys normally will translate to an average strength 3.5 hit against a stationary tank under perfect conditions. That won’t help you deal with a T34 or PzIV, especially considering you need to get your infantry squad in charge range of a vehicle faster then they are, without taking any casualties.

[Alan Tibbetts]

Perhaps I should amend that to say they are overlooked in early war – when facing mostly armor 7 and 8.

“A vehicle that has made a Run action and subsequently been immobilized or otherwise brought to a halt that turn can be assaulted . . .” (pg 112)

It doesn’t say if you would need a 4+ or a 6 to hit such a vehicle. It also doesn’t explain the “otherwise brought to a halt”. What would those instances be?

Also, fully enclosed vehicles that fire pintle weapons at ground targets count as open-topped for the rest of the turn.

I’m in agreement that 2 points is probably too high.

Tank hunters don’t come in a large enough squad (max 4 men) to make them useful tank killers, except for the single Panzerfaust, and 14 points per man (regular) is pricey (33 points for 2 men with a Panzerfaust). The infiltration rule is useful.

Fortress Budapest book now allows the Soviets to buy Mounted Recon Squads in regular infantry slots from 1943 on. They don’t get any Panzerfaust, but they can buy a flamethrower. (5 man squad with flamethrower = 70 points). They also have the ability to leave 1 or more troops in their transport vehicle to fire vehicle mounted weapons. One must presume that the vehicle counts as occupied, not unoccupied, when this happens.

A flamethrower might not kill a tank outright, but it’s going to put pins on it and make it take morale rolls.

[Stuart Harrison]

@Alan Tibbetts
“A vehicle that has made a Run action and subsequently been immobilized or otherwise brought to a halt that turn can be assaulted . . .” (pg 112)”
It doesn’t say if you would need a 4+ or a 6 to hit such a vehicle. It also doesn’t explain the “otherwise brought to a halt”. What would those instances be?”

Bolt Action doesn’t care about the past, only what is currently shown on the order dice – a vehicle that is Down is stationary. A vehicle which hasn’t received an order is stationary, as is a vehicle that has any order not involving movement. It’s described in the rule as “If the vehicle is immobilised, if it has been bought to a halt and therefore has a Down order next to it, or if it has yet to take an action and therefore has no order.” followed by “in all these cases each attack from the infantry will score a hit on a die roll of a 4, 5 or 6.”

“otherwise brought to a halt” would be anything that results in the vehicle being given a Down order that turn – ie: damage results (stunned, immobilised, on fire), Using Recce etc (as per p100, Vehicles, Vehicles and Orders, second para).

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