spotter and holding objectives

[Master Chief]

The rules do not say anything about Spotters not being able to fire the vehicle’s weapons. However, we know a Spotter cannot use the weapons of a vehicle it is being transported in.

We know that because it was stated in the FAQs (see below) so in a sense it is part of the “rules”:

Can a medic or an artillery/mortar spotter fire the weapons of a vehicle they are being transported in?

It’s the passengers doing the firing, and therefore medic units, because they ‘cannot fire any weapons’, cannot fire a transport’s weaponry.

Spotters similarly cannot fire weapons and cannot spot while in the transport (extending to them the rules for HQs, which cannot use their special rules while transported).

 

As to “how often” it happens, I would say it does happen. Imagine holding an objective till the last turn, keeping enemy units at least 3in away, and in the final turn a spotter moves within 3in, such that the “control” conditions are no longer fulfilled. This also applies to a lone officer, 2-man teams etc. although the lattter 2 are “legal”.

[Kar98k]

Yes, we now know because it’s in the current FAQ, but before this, players had Spotters firing the vehicle’s weapons because the rules do not say anything about not being able to do this. Later we discovered Spotters could not. And this was the point I was trying to lean towards. Just because it’s not in the rule book doesn’t automatically mean it can be performed.

Here’s the thing though. I can imagine a Spotter firing a vehicle’s weapon. Even more so than a Spotter controlling an objective. However, a lot of times players just have to apply the rule’s intentions, or simply use common sense. As SteveT pointed out earlier, what if the objective was something like documents or other intel? It makes even more sense that a spotter can do this.

[Master Chief]

And this was the point I was trying to lean towards. Just because it’s not in the rule book doesn’t automatically mean it can be performed.

But that’s the point of having “rules” in every game. If players do not go by what the rules specifically allow or disallow (at a given point in time), then the game will be bogged down by such lengthy discussions during the game and distract players from enjoying the game.

 

Even before the FAQ I was inclined that Spotters cannot fire a transport’s weapon, because it cannot fire when untransported, so why would being on a transport “magically” allow it to fire (the transport’s weapons)? Whether the rule “makes sense” is beside the point, but I think it has to be consistent. But without the official “rule”, we would be “arguing” over whether a Spotter can fire a transport’s weapon, like what we are now discussing about whether a spotter can hold/take objectives.

Sure the rules will never be perfect, and may not cover every “minor” detail that comes up in a game, so players just have to go with the closest thing they have from the imperfect rules.

So I would say as long as the rules do not specifically prevent it, it can be done, until the rules “officially” disallows it.

[Steeljackal]

I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. He work like a non-combat unit, only things he do is extend mortar/arty los. So to me have no sense that he can take and hold objective.

Then is true, rules does not say explicitly he can’t, but to me rules say it implicitly. I work every day with regulations, and there is no law that says everything, you always have to interpret … and unfortunately this is why there are lawyers. This is a game, what we have to do, raw reading or interpret rules.

FAQs show that the regulation must be interpreted, in fact often the FAQ does not reiterate what the regulation says from a raw reading, but from an a interpretation. But if between two players we are in discussion on this point and we disagree, we apply that regulation as per raw reading, even if it says nonsense. If the regulation says that an SMG fires 1 shot at 24 inches and a rifle fires 2 shots at 12 inches, and there is no FAQ / errata, in case of disagreement will we apply the rule according to a raw reading, even if says non sense.

I play spotter that can’t hold objective, but if other palyer doesn’t agree, I think I accept his raw reading of rulebook.

 

 

[SteveT]

But you think it’s ok for an unarmed mortar team reduced to 1 man to take an objective?

 

[Stuart Harrison]

“I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. ”

Steeljackal – the gap in your “exactly” claim is that medics and chaplains ARE non-combatants under the laws of armed conflict, a spotter is not.

The first two aren’t allowed to fire or assault based on their non combatant status.  The spotter isn’t allowed to fire or assault because he hasn’t been allocated a personal weapon in the lists and Warlord a) couldn’t be bothered going back through adding one via errata, and b) don’t appear to like the idea of letting players use them like a small combat unit instead of doing their job of directing fire.

If you accept the customer service answer without questioning it, you’ve just limited holding objectives to Squads, Artillery with 4 or more crew, and support teams of 4 or more men – a limitation which simply does not exist in the rules.

[invisible officer]

That Chaplains are 100 % non combatants is a popular myth. They are officers and allowed personal arms like pistols.  The rank gave them all rights of command.   Many British or German ones in both World wars fought.

Even more doctors did. They too had a pistol.   One German one even commanded a tank battalion for some time. Legally! He was the highest ranking officer there for days.

 

Only in serving in a hospital or tending a wounded they are under protection of the Geneva Convention.   Military Hospitals had rifles and even Machine guns for defence.

 

My father was a German WW II spotter. Not intended to fight with his pistol. Badly wounded by splinters in Battle of Bobruisk, serving with the infantry for his 105 mm FH unit. But not defending a point. The wireless operating two men team had rifles for self defence. But no hand grenades and limited rifle amo only. A spotter was a highly quallified specialist. To waste him as infantry was…………

Early artillery spotter tanks had wooden dummy guns, later ones standard cannons. But ever MG.  All for self defence. Avoiding fights as much as possible.

 

 

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by invisible officer.

[Steeljackal]

Stuart Harrison

Participant

“I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. ”

Steeljackal – the gap in your “exactly” claim is that medics and chaplains ARE non-combatants under the laws of armed conflict, a spotter is not.

The first two aren’t allowed to fire or assault based on their non combatant status.  The spotter isn’t allowed to fire or assault because he hasn’t been allocated a personal weapon in the lists and Warlord a) couldn’t be bothered going back through adding one via errata, and b) don’t appear to like the idea of letting players use them like a small combat unit instead of doing their job of directing fire.

Suart Harrison

Participant

If you accept the customer service answer without questioning it, you’ve just limited holding objectives to Squads, Artillery with 4 or more crew, and support teams of 4 or more men – a limitation which simply does not exist in the rules.

Warlord wrote about artillery with at least 3 men, 3+ men. Bazooka, MG, sniper, mortar teams are infantry, not artillery. Apart from this clarification, I do not understand where this thing comes from, I think they drank more than usual this time. 😅🍻 Jokes aside, if such a rule were well thought out and included in the regulation, I would agree.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Steeljackal.

[Participant]

“I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. ”

Steeljackal – the gap in your “exactly” claim is that medics and chaplains ARE non-combatants under the laws of armed conflict, a spotter is not.

[Steeljackal]

The first two aren’t allowed to fire or assault based on their non combatant status.  The spotter isn’t allowed to fire or assault because he hasn’t been allocated a personal weapon in the lists and Warlord a) couldn’t be bothered going back through adding one via errata, and b) don’t appear to like the idea of letting players use them like a small combat unit instead of doing their job of directing fire.

[Steeljackal]

[Suart Harrison]

If you accept the customer service answer without questioning it, you’ve just limited holding objectives to Squads, Artillery with 4 or more crew, and support teams of 4 or more men – a limitation which simply does not exist in the rules.

Warlord wrote about artillery with at least 3 men, 3+ men. Bazooka, MG, sniper, mortar teams are infantry, not artillery. Apart from this clarification, I do not understand where this thing comes from, I think they drank more than usual this time. 😅🍻 Jokes aside, if such a rule were well thought out and included in the regulation, I would agree.

[Master Chief]

I just received my Campaign Mariana book from Warlord.

Victory! (page 11 for Beach Landing scenarios)

In addition to the normal Victory Points available, the attacker gains an additional 1 Victory Point if they have any units within 3″ of the opposite table edge at the end of the game.

So the same question arises … does a spotter count as a “unit” …

[Master Chief]

Bolt Action 2nd Ed, Scenario 5 (page 138):

VICTORY!
The side that carries the objective marker (a briefcase) off the table before the end of the game wins. Otherwise the result is a draw.

To seize the marker, an infantry unit must advance or run and end its move with one model touching the objective. From the following turn, that model will carry the marker as its unit moves. If the model carrying the marker ends its move to within 1” of a model belonging to a friendly infantry unit (or indeed a friendly infantry unit ends its move so that one of its models is within 1” of the model carrying the marker), the marker can immediately be handed over from one model to the other.

This handing over of the objective marker can be done only once per turn, to stop an unrealistic ‘chain effect’. If the model carrying the marker is killed, the marker can be transferred to any other model in the unit. If the entire unit is killed /removed from play, the marker is left on the ground for someone else to pick up later.

If the unit carrying the marker is destroyed in an assault, the enemy unit that destroyed it can immediately claim the marker and place it next to one of their models before they make their regroup move.

 

For players who feel spotters should not be allowed to claim objectives, based on the scenario description, a spotter would qualify as it is part of a unit and is a “model”.

I do not propose using a spotter as “infantry”, but in a (abeit fictitious) “war”, soldiers nearest the objective may sometimes be tasked to do something out of their normal scope. So it is useful to agree with your opponent before hand, on what the spotter can do, to avoid arguements later.

[Master Chief]

Finally in the latest Errata:

Page 71, Spotters. The following sentence will be added at the end of the entry:

Note that spotters are always ignored for the purpose of victory conditions (e.g. they cannot capture/control/hold objectives and areas of the table, move out of the table to score points, etc).

[Kar98k]

Confirmed! The newest Errata & FAQ for Bolt Action Second Edition that was just released a few days ago (dated September 21, 2020) now has the above update for Spotters.

I wonder if this forum thread which was started on September 15th, 2020 had anything to do with this new addition?

[Steeljackal]

It could be. I wrote to Warlord and they told me they would answer in the next FAQ

[Steeljackal]

Stuart Harrison

Participant

“I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. ”

Steeljackal – the gap in your “exactly” claim is that medics and chaplains ARE non-combatants under the laws of armed conflict, a spotter is not.

The first two aren’t allowed to fire or assault based on their non combatant status.  The spotter isn’t allowed to fire or assault because he hasn’t been allocated a personal weapon in the lists and Warlord a) couldn’t be bothered going back through adding one via errata, and b) don’t appear to like the idea of letting players use them like a small combat unit instead of doing their job of directing fire.

Stuart Harrison

Participant

If you accept the customer service answer without questioning it, you’ve just limited holding objectives to Squads, Artillery with 4 or more crew, and support teams of 4 or more men – a limitation which simply does not exist in the rules.

Warlord wrote about artillery with at least 3 men, 3+ men. Bazooka, MG, sniper, mortar teams are infantry, not artillery. Apart from this clarification, I do not understand where this thing comes from, I think they drank more than usual this time. 😅🍻 Jokes aside, if such a rule were well thought out and included in the regulation, I would agree.

[Stuart Harrison]

“I agree with Warlord answer, because spotter can’t fire or assault, excalty like a medic and a chaplain. ”

Steeljackal – the gap in your “exactly” claim is that medics and chaplains ARE non-combatants under the laws of armed conflict, a spotter is not.

The first two aren’t allowed to fire or assault based on their non combatant status.  The spotter isn’t allowed to fire or assault because he hasn’t been allocated a personal weapon in the lists and Warlord a) couldn’t be bothered going back through adding one via errata, and b) don’t appear to like the idea of letting players use them like a small combat unit instead of doing their job of directing fire.

[Stuart Harrison]

[Stuart Harrison]

If you accept the customer service answer without questioning it, you’ve just limited holding objectives to Squads, Artillery with 4 or more crew, and support teams of 4 or more men – a limitation which simply does not exist in the rules.

Warlord wrote about artillery with at least 3 men, 3+ men. Bazooka, MG, sniper, mortar teams are infantry, not artillery. Apart from this clarification, I do not understand where this thing comes from, I think they drank more than usual this time. 😅🍻 Jokes aside, if such a rule were well thought out and included in the regulation, I would agree.

[Nick]

My objection to spotter holding taking something is economic. A 50 point mortar and 10 point spotter would be able to take 2 objectives.

That doesn’t seem quite right .

[Author]

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