Submarine stats- pags 94-99 in the rulebook

[Stephen]

I bought the rules over this weekend and I have examined that other than hull and speed almost submarines have cloned weaponry suite of 1×3″ gun, 1x20mm and 6 Torpedoes and this is incorrect. You don’t need a copy of Jane’s to identify this…just look at Wikipedia!

The correct stats for the following are as follows…(rounding speed to nearest whole number)

P.94
T Class- should have 1×4″ Gun, 10 Torpedoes, and no 20mm AA Gun. Speed is probably correct

P.95
Type VII ( VIIc is the majority of production) speed is correct, as most could achieve 16.5kts on the surfaced (rounding up)
VIIa and VIIb- has 1x88mm gun, 5 Torpedoes and 1x20mm
VIIc- has 5 Torpedoes, 1x88mm gun and can replace the 20mm with a 37mm and should also have more hull points
VIId- has 5 torpedoes, 1x88mm gun, and has 2x20mm with the same hull as VIIc
VIIf- has 5 torpedoes, no 88mm gun, 1x37mm and 2x20mm and again increased hull over the VIIc

Type XXI- has 6 torpedoes, no heavy deck gun, 2x20mm, speed should be 16kts (rounding up)

P.96
Marcello Class- 2×4″ guns, 4xHMG, 8 torpedoes and speed should be 17kts

P.97
Gato Class (early mod 1 & 2)- 1×3″ gun & with 1xHMG, 10 Torpedoes, replace 1x20mm with HMG and speed should be 21kts
Gato Class (late mod 3 & 4)- 1×5″ gun with no HMG, 10 Torpedoes, 1x40mm, 1x20mm and speed should be 21kts

P.98
Shchuka Class- no 3″deck gun, 6 Torpedoes, 2x 45mm and speed should be 13kts

As I can’t work out the calculation for the conversion of hull points and speed in terms of game PV the fully loaded points I could only estimate.

[Big Al]

While you are right about the actual submarine differences, The rules for submarines are on page 58-59. When you read them, you will find that the game did not intend any great detail for them and made them generic. They did the same for aircraft.

[Dr Dave]

I can’t get excited about a submarine game. 🙁

Either the sub is attacking things that can’t see it or find it, or once it is found it’s probably dead. It’s a surface boat game and I think the author was trying to avoid the tail wagging the dog too much?

[Big Al]

I agree, Dr Dave. That’s how I read it. The rules are good for the odd scenario involving a sub. The listed weaponry is heavy enough to deal a lot of damage to the small boats, anyway. Making them bigger wouldn’t enhance the game.

Mind you, Warlord have put that Monitor up in their store….

[Stephen]

If you are playing a historical game get the history right, otherwise go and play warhamster or spacewombles

[invisible officer]

I’m with Stephen. If one lists different types the data should be correct.

If you want an epic surface fight:November 1943. U 405 against USS Borie.
72 minutes fight with everything. Guns, MG. SMG. Rifles.Pistols. Hand grenades.
Even a knive thrown by one US sailor. Official US navy report, no German was rescued to tell. Well, it Claims that mate Krus hit a German with an empty amo box over board. So Boarding BY Germans ????? Or American Story telling????

U 404 was sunk but gave the old DD a hard time. In sinking condition the USN Crew abandoned ship. The wreck was sank by USS Barry.

[Dr Dave]

I’m with You guys.

But, I do think the monitor might be viable for a “what if” raid off the Italian / Normandy coast – but not for a pitched set to. That said, I have always loved RN WW2 Monitors.

[Stephen]

Given others are spotting basic errors in statistics for vessels (see the new post on the Soviet river patrol boats ) can someone from Warlord please give us info on how you calculate the points values for hull strength and speed.

[Big Al]

I agree to some extent, Stephen, but not as far as to suggest playing such games as you have suggested. You can still play historical games with the rules and stats as given.
While accurate stats would be much better, I don’t think that bigger guns or even faster speeds for the subs would make any real difference to the game. Unless you are going to bring in some of the larger, better armoured ships.

I play some modern warfare Skirmish Rules, which are designed for infantry fire team actions. Similar questions were asked about tanks and why a T55 and an M1 Abrahams have the same gun effect. Simply, it is because a tank is a tank to an infantryman and it doesn’t matter if the shell it fires at you is 100mm or 120mm. If it hits you’re going to be in bits. More important is the number of machine guns it has on board and what you can do to avoid it until you can get to a position where you can disable it.
The same thing applies to this game, really. There comes a point where certain stats are of little consequence. They would only matter if you were doing full fleet engagements over greater distances.

[Eric Fontaine]

It is a game first fellas, play it to have fun!

[RichC]

Hi Stephen

We originally had many variations but it was decided that as this game is after all focussed on the Small ship actions that the subs would not be included – this turned into giving them all the same generic stats to allow one in a scenario. AS Eric said, it’s a game and we wanted something that we would enjoy.

Here are the basic stats we did have for everyone’s reference, tho – who knows, maybe we’ll have to do a supplement 😉

Ship Turn Angle Wake Size Ship Size Slow Combat Fast Hull All boats & ships (except Tiny) have additional 2x MG FREE Fully Loaded points
Gato Class Submarine – Surfaced R M M 7 14 21 160 1x 3″ gun, 1x 40mm Semi-auto, 1x 20mm. 290
Gato Class Submarine – Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 3 6 9 10x Torpedoes. (4x Torpedoes are loaded in, and can be fired from, the stern only)
T-class submarine – surfaced R M M 5 10 15 120 1x 4″ gun, 225
T-class submarine – submerged/conning tower marker R S T 3 6 9 10x Torpedoes. (must fire in pairs – fire when submerged only)
U-Boat Type VII variants – Surfaced R M M 6 12 18 100 1x 88mm, 1x 20mm, 160
U-Boat Type VII – Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 2 4 6 5x Torpedoes. (1x Torpedo is loaded in, and can be fired from, the stern only)
U-Boat Type XXI variants – Surfaced R M M 5 10 15 140 4x 20mm, Radar/Sonar 240
U-Boat Type XXI – Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 6 12 18 6x Torpedoes.
Marcello-class submarine – Surfaced R M M 6 12 18 110 2x 4″ guns, 4x HMG, 1x 20mm, 235
Marcello-class submarine – Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 3 6 9 8x Torpedoes. (4x Torpedoes are loaded in, and can be fired from, the stern only)
Kaichū III (Ro-16 class) Submarine – Surfaced R M M 6 12 18 105 1x 3″ gun, 230
Ro-16 class Submarine – Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 3 6 9 6x Torpedoes. (must fire in pairs – fire when submerged only)
Shchuka-class submarine – Surfaced R M M 4 8 12 100 2x 40mm semi-auto 200
Shchuka-class submarine- Submerged/conning tower marker R S T 2 4 6 6x Torpedoes. (2x Torpedoes are loaded in, and can be fired from, the stern only)

[elcee]

Interesting to see, the testing with rules went much further than die rulebook made me think it did. Can you tell us what rules were used for the submerged ships?

[Stephen]

Richard
Thanks for the corrected submarine details and importantly the corrected points values for the boats.

Stephen

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