Turn Allowance Question

[RichC]

Hi Guys

The movement is always the set amount indicated in the ship stats and on the card – if it states you can move 12 cm for slow speed then you must move 12 cm, no more no less.
There are 3 clear speeds indicated: Slow, Combat and fast.
these are thirds of the top speed. At the end of each speed bracket i.e. each third, you may make a turn up to your allocated turn angle.

Therefore a ship travelling at a full speed of 36 cm gets 3 turns. A ship travelling at its slow speed of 12 cm gets 1 turn.

hope that helps 🙂

[Mark Barker]

Thanks, Rich.

Mark Barker

[Zloy Krolik]

>if it states you can move 12 cm for slow speed then you must move 12 cm, no more no less.

That is ridiculous, like saying if you have an Advance order in Bolt Action you must move 6″. Ships could certainly move at any speed up to their maximum, not just in 1/3 increments.

[Dr Dave]

Uhhhh, it’s not ridiculous. It’s not like the accelerator and speedo in your car where you can drive at any speed up to the max. The ship’s bridge to engine room telegraph has set incremental steps – you’ve seen them in the movies: full ahead, full, ahead slow, dead slow, stop etc… the rules present you with a simplified version of that. The captain says “ahead slow”, he doesn’t ask for 6.8 kts.

[Mark Barker]

… and as importantly you can’t stop just short of that torpedo track or to avoid colliding.

There is an inevitable feeling when you are driving a boat that you are going to collide and there is no brakes pedal …

As well as being realistic it also massively speeds play with multiple players, no messing about with part measuring, go to the end of the stick.

Mark Barker

[Zloy Krolik]

I get that ships have “advance”, the forward movement before they answer the rudder, but these are boats, under 150 tons, they respond much quicker than ships, they will have a smaller turning radius when moving slower, they can speed up and decelerate quicker than ships. In plain fact, they are more maneuverable than ships. Why all the restrictions on them? With the way the rules are written, you can not travel in formation with different kinds of vessels if they have different speeds. How unreal is that?

[invisible officer]

Vosper MTB can not decelerate faster. The Packard engine gear was prone to blow up using reverse. In some boats it was not working at all. The RN CO knew that in harbor 2 minutes of going back will 100 % take your boat out of action for days. And any shorter use was a risk so they avoided reverse as much as possible.

Turning circles are effected by many things, Speed is just one. That’s why Vospers got mid war a third rudder.
Add the Lürssen effect in high speed and waves, hull form, loading etc. and you have a nightmare for rule writers.

In action MTB rarely turned on slow speed. A bigger circle and higher speed made you a target far more difficult to hit.
Circling slowly on a small spot was like crying: “Hit me”

[Richard]

It’s been confirmed on the Facebook pages for Cruel Seas (not very helpful I know) that it is one turn per 1/3rd of full movement. So one turn per speed band. As per the demo vid:

[Zloy Krolik]

I think the rules about boat acceleration are fine, a simple way to show that boats can’t start & stop instantly, the problem is that you MUST move your full distance. No more, no less for each speed band you are going. If you are moving slow, you should be able to move UP TO 1/3 of your full speed. Furthermore, boats can turn in a tighter arc at slower speed. There would be times boats would move at less than full speed in combat to increase their maneuverability, but the rules don’t allow that.

But my main gripe is the poor proofreading done on Cruel Seas. Major rules are ambiguous and other rules have charts missing or other problems. It seems if these rules were rushed to print.

I’ve come to expect better than this from Warlord Games Rules. I like Bolt Action and find them to be a very good set of rules for the period and scope of battle that they cover.

I am very pleased with the models, they are nicely detailed and look good on the table, too bad the rules weren’t as well laid out as the models.

[Dr Dave]

Dear Zloy, when you say:

“they will have a smaller turning radius when moving slower”

That’s not the case at all. Turning circle is NOT a function of speed, but how far the wheel / rudder can be thrown over to left or right. Your car is the same. If you lock the wheel at the very end of its travel and then drive in a circle it does not matter how fast you go, the circles radius stays the same. Car types actually have a quoted turning circle, and it’s nothing to do with speed, just how far the wheel (or rudder) turns.

[invisible officer]

Like Dr. D allready stated, there was no setting of knots but just three or four settings.

Worse, for example the Soviet G-5 MBT was the fastest big series boat any navy had in WW II. But the emgine had a MINIMUM Speed of 18 knots. Going into Harbor was….. Imagin to park your car with 30 Km/h. 😉

Speed has little effect on turning. It is much more a question of water pressure to the rudder and hull form. So in some cases more preesure = being faster helps to turn.

The proof reading was not poor but done by peoples that knew the rules. Same problem we get with most TV set user instruction.

The rules are nice and work. That in the navy world of WW II SLOW on engine telegraph was a fixed Setting is no mistake by the authors.
If you are moving slow, you should be able to move UP TO 1/3 of your full speed. is wrong in that time.

Having spent a lot of time on yachts I can assure you, nothing makes you more proud than being able to stop your vessel a perfect 20 – 30 cm from pier. Just by going to Zero in right moment. Without breaks…….

[Dr Dave]

Well, I’ve just spoken to a RN warfare officer and he says that turning circle DOES depend on speed. It’s NOT like a car. My bad. This is because the water is s fluid medium and the momentum of the ship means that the water is pushed aside by the ship as it turns. Hence you have what is apparently a VERY complex scenario.

He assures me that the real turning circle is dependent upon: fwd speed, rudder setting, how many rudders / surface area of the rudders, propellers – are they inward, outward or contra rotating if there’s more than one, wind strength and direction (the ship above the water acts like a sail), sea state and currents.

And if you only have only one rudder your can end up in real trouble. My Uncle George watched a ship come to grief with only one rudder when it was damaged and left said vessel in a slow gentle turn. But IO will know more about that.

As with IO, I to have spent time in yachts and dinghies. Nothing made me more proud than the reassuring thump as you stopped your vessel against the pier because you don’t have any brakes.

[invisible officer]

Yes, as I stated speed has effect. One of many aspects Your RN Informant did not even mention all factors.

For example the bottom of sea in shallow water. It happened often that vessels collided that had set their rudders correct to avoid collision but the water congestion …

Worse, the vessels can produce a sucking effect. That’s why getting a Pilot on a moving big ship is high art.

The MTB size boats that passed the wake produced by others was thrown out of course. Imagin rules that cover that….. .

I guess Krolik dislikes the big risk of running his boats against something solid. But that was a big hazard and for me part of the games fun. Guessing enemies course, calculating own ones. Great. Many S-Boote had to be sunk post collision with OWN boats. Like S 119, 128, 199 and more.

[George]

…and size. Size matters.

[Mark Barker]

My example diagrams were based on Merchant ships, warships are a different matter. Nice to see our discussion reflected in the errata.

Mark Barker

[Author]

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