Turn Allowance Question

[Zloy Krolik]

I don’t have issues with the turning rules at Combat & Full speed, I think they’re a good compromise between playability and realism/complexity. You have to make those design decisions when developing the game. If a vessel uses the 30 degree turning marker, the RAW are fine.

I just think that at Slow speed the boats (not ships) would be move maneuverable than in the game. It appears that those with actual naval experience would agree. I did ask a friend with considerable naval knowledge about this as well.

I happen to live in Portland, Oregon, USA. Home of the restored PT658 & have seen it motoring about the Willamette River. Those Packard engines sound terrific! The PT boat was quite maneuverable at slow speeds. While this kind of personal observation isn’t exact data, it does confirm what I’ve been told.

http://www.savetheptboatinc.com/

As to poor proofreading, I get that those with familiarity with the rules can overlook things, that is why you have someone not involved with the project do the proofreading. But missing charts and wrong numbers are other examples of the poor job in proofreading. The rules are barely a month old and we already have errata, for which I am thankful.

[invisible officer]

As I wrote before it’s not so easy with turning circles.
Kriegsmarine used Dutch built Power boat type TM 52 and 53 as S 201 and 202. And compared them to S-38/100 Hull Schnellboote.
Turning circle at full speed was smaller than the German boat’s one but surprise: At slow speed the German one had a lot smaller despite being much longer.

To the left is was even more worse because all screws turned in same direction.

So it was not the speeed that had the main effect.

At Beaufort 3 it was a worse seaboat than S-Boote at Beaufort 5.
So the KM sold them to Bulgaria and built new S201/202.

[Zloy Krolik]

>Turning circle at full speed was smaller than the German boat’s one but surprise: At slow speed the German one had a lot smaller despite being much longer.

This illustrates my point exactly, the turning circle changes with speed. I understand the compromise between playability & realism/complexity. But in Cruel Seas, boats have the same turning circle regardless of speed.

Case in point, to change course by 180 degrees a boat moving at Full speed will do it in 1 1/3 game turns, a boat at Combat speed will do it in 2 game turns, and a boat at Slow speed will do it in 4 game turns. And all of them will have the exact same track.

I think the RAW work fine for boats at Combat and Full speed, but boats are move maneuverable at Slow speed than the rules would allow. The rules for turning ships with a 30 degree turn are fine.

[invisible officer]

Well, the point is that Speed has not the same effect on each hull form and size.

Schnellboote turned better at slow Speed, Vosper and Power boat company style hulls at high speed.

The rule designers found a way for all types.

Nerd me would have written rules with specific circles for all types and speeds But that historian loves research and nerd rules. Most Gamers will prefer some simplification for a faster game.

[Zloy Krolik]

Then why does a ship with a Full speed of 12 cm turn 180 degrees in a tighter arc than a ship with a Slow speed of 12 cm? Play it out with some models and you’ll see this is true. They are both moving at the same speed, 12 cm.

[invisible officer]

To make the game easier?

One style for all.

[Whitlock]

Rule simplicity is one thing but I can’t agree with one size fits all, on that basis why have different speed or gun effects?
If the speed of a a boat is such a minor factor, which is what seems to be implied, then surely a boat could turn it’s maximum amount at any speed.
Perhaps you would have been better of limiting large vessels to an even smaller angle of turn, one where they would turn less at full speed than a more agile vessel at combat speed, perhaps 20°, or if one size fits all was the goal, why not have just a 45° angle of turn, but less manoeuvrable large vessels only get two turns, one at slow speed and one at combat speed?

[leopard]

Have seen other games do this with what amounts to turning arc templates, you move whatever distance you want either straight or up to but no more than the turning on a template.

the templates tend to get in the way but you get lovely smooth curves.

but then there is a hell of a lot this game lacks in terms of detail, much of which is probably best abstracted out, no matter how much fun it could occasionally be (ships being sucked into one another as they pass and similar)

had a game today where it was pointed out the way the rules are played in the on line stuff and what the book actually says are different and easily open to interpretation…

I guess its a bit like how in BRS aircraft with guns famous for firing in the direction the aircraft was travelling, and that direction _only_ have a 90 degree fire arc

[Richard Walker]

I’m much Suprised that “real world advocates” rattling on about angles and such have happily accepted pivoting on rear corners.
Much like rear steared vehicles on land, boats tend to pivot more or less on a front corner.
And boats can steer better at slow speeds in these rules. It’s called zero speed and no boat or ship out turns each other at zero speed .

[invisible officer]

Do Zero speed vehicle turn at all in the rules??? Or do they need the minimum speed or more? Our Group rule copy is with a friend.

Real world had many variants. WW II Minesweeper M 35 class boats M1 and 2 could turn at Zero “on a table” having Voith-Schneider Propellers. But from, M3 only ordinary Propellers got built in.

And again: German Schnellboote turned better at slow Speed but Vosper and Power boat company style hulls at high speed. There is no real world one for all rule.

The game designers obviously tried to use a simple rule for all. One that fit some vessels and others not.

Nerd me would use different turning circle templates based on research. Not just for different speeds but different ships.

—

Like my friends I’m not much interested in just playing Cruel see but Coastal war. We will use it as base for playing.
Not a bible. Using what we like and dropping the rest.

You should see our groups 1/300 (!) coastal war rules. For Napoleonic ships. Not using the usual Pound = Pound fuss but the real weight that was very different from Country to Country. Nerds.

[Richard Walker]

At speed zero all vessels can rear pivot up to 90 degrees

[Dr Dave]

From my dinghy sailing days I’m trying to understand how a stationary boat can put the rudder all the way over and turn if it’s not moving. As far as I can remember if you do that with no flow over the rudder nothing happens. Can you explain a bit more please? Is it an anomaly in the rules?

[Richard Walker]

A propellor moves water across the rudder.
Or propelled water is directed by the rudder to push the rear of the boat to the side to pivot the boat about its front hopefully.
The game is a quick simulation /representation of movement to enable MTBs to launch torpedos and fire guns.
Do we need too much information to get a game done? I’ve played in games where the simulation took far longer that the real event lasted. Depends what you call fun.

[Dr Dave]

Sorry, I’m confused. Are you saying that a stationary boat can turn on the spot? Real world I mean, not in games.

“A propeller moves water across the rudder” ?… and so it moves the boat through the water as well.

Propeller turns = boat moves, unless it’s stationary in a current – too complex for a game? It is the flow of water across the rudder as the boat moves that means it will turn.

Stationary boats can’t turn in the real world simply by moving the rudder.

[Richard Walker]

Boats with a rudder directly in the flow of water from the propellor can redirect flow to say 45 degrees from directly to rear.
This will turn the boat. Not as effective as an outboard motor being swivelled.
Now what level of design ww2 boats used? ??
Russian project 1125 has in line rudder
Polish (ex ww1 german) torpedo boats twin propellor single rudder.

[Author]

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